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Thursday, January 28, 2010

OBEDIENCE VS. INTELLIGENCE.



Quick Edit - We have a new contributor again lol, his name is Realist. Please welcome our two new members 'Realist and Messiah' to blogsville.
All throughout history, the one thing most religions have in common is the eternal story of good vs evil. Sometimes the words aren't even far apart from spelling like "God" and "good," the "Devil" an "evil," and sometimes colours/tones of light are representatives for each party; white is a symbol for purity, holiness, and goodness, whereas black/darkness is portrayed as evil. But the story always ends with good defeating evil, until one starts to scratch past the surface and see an entirely different story. Unclear truths, plain ol' bullshit and twisted logic in the mix like good doing evil. For example, the Judeo-Christian God waging probably the biggest genocide of all time by wiping almost all humanity in a massive flood saving only Noah, just because they didn't obey him (not because they were good or bad). The same "good" God in Exodus 21:20-21 said it's ok to beat up your slaves as long as they don't die because they are your property? I'm more than sure this verse came up a lot in the debate of slave ownership in the U.S., yet I bet many of you object to this right now. Why? Because your intelligent or you can test your obedience by following that rule (it will be a real test especially if you're the slave). 


 The epic "good vs evil" tale of being on God's side or the Devil's is really a smoke-screen for either being obedient or intelligent. It's exactly the reason God kicked Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden. He warned them, saying "if you eat out of the tree of KNOWLEDGE....you shall surely die," they disobeyed him, and the fruit of knowledge opened up their eyes and they became smart. When God found out they had disobeyed Him, He punished them BUT He kept them in the Garden until He thought it over. Gen 3:22 "The Lord said to Himself, "People have become as we are, knowing everything, both good and evil. What if they eat of the tree of life? Then they will live forever!" Then He banishes them for the garden, but do you read between the lines on that verse? "People have become as we are, knowing everything good and evil....," so it wasn't God's plan for humanity to be smart, just obedient, we're where supposed to be nothing but His obedient little robots. And why didn't God want humanity to know what's good and evil? Maybe God was scared that we will use that knowledge to find out that He is not 100% good. Which is why the "good vs evil" notion is bullshit, because pastors everywhere say that there are good people in hell right now. Now ask yourself this question, why would a good God punish good people? One word; obedience (or the lack thereof). 


 But don't get me wrong, obedience is a good thing, unless it's without helpful and logical meaning, like suicide bombing because that's what your "God" said. OK, enough with obedience, let's focus on the dark side; intelligence. In the smart world of science, no theory or claim is definite unless it has passed the scientific methodical test without any flaws. For instance, some of Sir Isaac Newton proposed theories were single-handedly out-ruled by Albert Einstein's theory of relativity. That's what makes smart people smart, they constantly find the truth rather than blind follow pseudo-truths. Imagine if the scientific world operated like the religious world, Einstein would be seen as a heretic for questioning Sir Isaac Newton's theories instead of seen as a hero who made the world smarter by fixing another man's errors. 


 Intelligence doubts, and isn't satisfied unless a definite truth has been found. Intelligence investigates rather than accept in a gullible manner, which is why it is harder to do 419 on an intelligent person, because intelligent people don't walk by faith, but by sight. Intelligence opens minds; when you're intelligent you see things from different and unconventional perspectives instead of always thinking the unusual is blasphemy. And most importantly, intelligence makes you human: Just like speed makes cheetahs what they are, or keen sight makes hawks hawks, our intellect makes us a unique species, and throwing that uniqueness away is a slap in nature's face. An unintelligent human is an oxymoron just like a slow cheetah, a short-sighted hawk, or an anorexic elephant. So my dear friends, whether you call it the religious "good vs evil," or obedience vs intelligence, the choice between being robot or human, Pinocchio or a real boy, lies on your two shoulders. Choose intelligently :-)

39 comments:

sweetness said...

Lol i started reading this from facebook
Azazel u know the usual now
Am not even gonna comment
because there is nothing i will say that hasnt been said by Chuk n ur other lady friend
And i read ALL ur answers for ALL of them, u always have answers

nice post

Neo said...

azazel where r u recruiting all this ppl from? AA (Atheists Anonymous). i'm off to bed, back to read in the morrow.

Azazel said...

Lmao @ atheists anonymous..
lol @ always have answers..
Thanks sweetness..
Neo u berra be back to give ur thoughts

Rene said...

lol @ Atheists Anonymous
So this post made sense buh I really don't hav any comment yet, have t ponder on it for a while

Chuk said...

i will be bak later..gotta go catch some zzzzzz lol (if u kno what I mean)..i will be back doing after doing some reseacrh for example for ur Exodus verse

Azazel said...

Lol messiah is suppose to make sense, hence why he is called the messiah lol

Realist said...

Well written... Makes you think

leggy said...

can you pls make it clear to me why he kept comparing 'good vs. evil' with 'obedience vs intelligence' i didnt quite get that.

Myne Whitman said...

Food for thought. Where did you get that pic Azazel? LOL...

Azazel said...

Lol i did not get it, messiah got it Myne..
The dude is smart lol.
leggy idk what u mean by ur question..
I actually thought it was a really simple post.
He's replacin the good vs evil argument with obedience vs intelligence.

The Messiah said...

I'll like to thank everybody for who responded for your response. This is my first blog ever and I'm glad I fed minds at it.

@ leggy, my point is that the religious good vs evil, isn't what it seems.

The good side is led by God, which explains terms like, "God is good." But in reality (at least according to the Biblical reality), it isn't so. In fact He isn't 100% good. He is unfair, angry, jealous, and somewhat childish.

His unfairness is evident, by claiming He exist without any proof, but when you die and see Him He punishes you for not believing in Him.

His anger is evident in the story of Noah's ark. And the Bible consistently speaks of the Wrath of God as something to not fuck with.

His jealous is evident in Ex 20:5. Nuff said.

His childishness is evident the minute He created an ETERNAL place of suffering for ppl who don't follow the right religion. C'mon now, ETERNAL? That's worse than a life sentence by infinity. Literally!

But yet being on the side of this unfair, angry, jealous, and childish God is the good side? So without reading between the lines, one will say yes. Why? Because that's what he/she was taught, and therefore is obeying/following the teachings. That's where Obedience is derived, Intelligence is looking at the full picture, instead of accepting the little piece you've been offered. That's why scientist who tested religion in the dark ages where under strict scrutiny and where sometimes seen as a heretic because they weren't Obedient but intelligent. Obedience doesn't question God as religion preaches one should, but Intelligence does. That's my point, hope I made things clearer.

Azazel said...

I could not have explained it better

David.фаворит Бога номер-один said...

LMAO!!!
i laughed the whole all through!
it's a "smart" argument but i know
not to start...lol!

lol @AA...hehehe!

David.фаворит Бога номер-один said...

LWKMDie @ messiah...
really?
no offence but it's crazy funny...lol

Neo said...

ok, i just woke up and i have a class in 45 mins, see my friend thinks i have an unhealthy addiction to this blog, she maybe thinks u ppl will convert me to faithlessness.lol.

anyways i have two questions for messiah
1. do u believe God exists? cos u described him as unfair, childish etc. Only things in existence can be capable of being described
2. Are u basing ur arguments on his existence or lack thereof?

"You cant put something on nothing and expect it to stand"- Lord Denning.

leggy said...

id like to hear the answer you'd give neo and thanks for explaining that to me.

SOLOMONSYDELLE said...

lol @ Neo's "Atheists Anonymous" too true.

How ironic, an 'atheist' (assuming he/she is ) picks the name "Messiah".

Azazel, no vex about the comment verification thing at Nigerian Curiosity. Once that blog reached a certain rank, spammers started to attack and it just got ridiculous. When that slows down, I will remove the verification just because it annoys you (and God knows who else).

Ah, I mentioned God in a random statement at a blog run to support and encourage "Atheists Anonymous".

Enoch said...

Messiah, I know you did not die for my sins but this post makes me want to give my life to you.

@Neo
Don't think. OBEY!!!

BLASPHEMY said...

Hehehe @ Enoch i also nearly gave my own life
why is everyone trying running away avoid comments with savvy replies lol
anyways nice post messiah!

Chuk said...

@ Messiah, ur quite a handful..i will hopefully get 2 u in due time

Azazel said...

Umm Neo obviously Messiah is arguing from the 'perspective' of the bible. The dude is an atheist, he doesn't believe in the God of the bible. But in his post, he's arguing based on your own perspective about the bible.
Loooooooooooooooool Enoch hahaha @ made me want to give my life to you.
Blasphemy also. hahahaha the guy is that good.

Solomon thank u for mentioning us o, haha all atheists are welcome here. And other peeps are welcome to.

Neo see what u have caused now? Lol i don't even know how u came up with that name self

LucidLilith said...

Is it right to judge God based on our understanding of what we think we know? Actually I meant to ask if it was fair. Truth is we dont know it all. We dont know if hell exists or if heaven exists. For all i know hell is right here on earth. God is the only being close to perfection we assume but is he/she perfect? The Bible does not tell us all. We just have to die and see then, abi?

The Messiah said...

@Neo, No I don't believe God exists, but I'm guessing the God you're talking about is Jehovah. Just to add to that I don't believe in Allah, Zeus, Horus, Amadioha, Shango, or any kind of "God." And just as Azazel said, my arguments are based on the Biblical perspective, see this was what was going through my mind when I was a Christian and I examined what I believed without bias. I had to observe my former beliefs from the outside looking in, and trust me it's really helpful doing so. It's like when an American kid is finally piecing together and realizing that Santa Claus is a lie. So until you read this post without the Christian/Believer's bias, you may never fully understand my message.

Azazel said...

Lol ehen Lily u are finally talking..
Now why don't u tell ur fellow muslim, christian, and jewish bros to see the light of that statement? What do we even know about God? We do not know whether he exists or whether he does not exist. So why are people telling us he exists when they can't even tell if he's perfect??? Anybody can write a collection of books like the bible, and as Messiah will point out it is important to actually do research concernin all the books of the bible. Why some where left out and why some were left in.

Chuk said...

@ LucidLilith..the Bible makes it clear that Hell is in the HEART OF THE EARTH..i can find the verse if u want further proof..the Bible also mentions Heaven several tinmes and makes it clear that God is perfect..all His ways are just..all the things Jesus did while on Earth, were right..if He would have sinned just ONCE, He wouldnt have been worthy to pay for our sins..u cant use something dirty to clean something dirty, u use something clean and unstained to clean up dirt

Azazel said...

Lol Chuk supuya.

Chuk said...

what was that Azazel lol?

The Messiah said...

He is a just God? Hmm let's analyze this. Moses went to mt Sinai to get the ten commandments, meanwhile the Israeli people waited till they couldn't no more and decided to worship a carved bull. What they didn't know is that the commandments given to Moses by God rejected Idol worship, and of course they couldn't know this because they haven't seen the commandments yet. So Moses, who has the commandments 1-10, comes down and sees his ppl breaking the 2nd commandment he smashes the tablets and then he himself breaks the 6th commandments and orders that they all be murdered. Yet God didn't seem to have anything to say about that injustice....

His ways are just? According to the New Testament, the only way to enter into the gates of Heaven is to accept Jesus Christ as the truth, the way, and the life and you can't come to the Father (who is in Heaven) unless through him(Jesus). Think for a second, if that verse is taken literally, then all those good ppl who died and were never born again because they never knew Jesus deserve Hell. As a matter of fact, since we're born in to sin, and the only way to Heaven is to be born again, then babies who never accepted Christ deserve hell, because they were born into sin.

How is that fair?

Azazel said...

Oh shit, Messiah I see u coming hard with that ish..
So true @ Moses getting angry @ the people for worshipping something that they did not know was wrong.

The Fourth Child Rebel Soldier said...

Yeah it's me again. I've still not activated a Google account, so my membership is still pending, so... I still have the liberty of different pseudonyms.

You appear to me, Messiah, as a brilliant individual that just needs a little shift in perspective. Firstly 'Good vs Evil, 'Obedience vs Intelligence'. I have my own 'versus' relationships. Bear with me;

Good vs Evil, Love vs Hate, Knowledge vs Ignorance, Respect vs Fear. Only when we have open minds do we have respect or acceptance of alien concepts (or peoples or 'situs' even), and when we have 'respect' we build knowledge on it. Those that are knowledgeable are content, wise individuals full of love. And those that love God and his creation do good. And so the Hate pattern goes. If it makes little sense now, it's only because I'm sleepy..

Also regarding Adam and Eve. See, your concept of God is not of an all powerful God but a God that is unable to control creation. In the Qur'an, when God was about to create Adam, he told the Angels 'I am going to create a vicegerent on earth' 'Would you create that which will commit bloodshed?' the angels replied (note: they did not ask this to question God's knowledge but in an attempt to understand the reason for this creation), to which God replied 'I know that which you know not'.

Therefore it is evident that God intended to place humanity on earth all along. Sure, God forbade Adam and Eve to eat from the fruit, and sure they disobeyed him (Satan played a part there), but neither of them even managed to swallow the fruit, and after their banishment from paradise they were full of remorse and begged for God's mercy. God forgave them and promised them that they shall return along with the good from their offspring.

It wasn't a story of God afraid that they will 'know' any knowledge that they should not or anything. In fact, God revered Adam above any other creation and taught him the names of everything and gave him knowledge that he did not give other creatures. God even ordered all the other creatures to bow to Adam, and they all did, except Satan, who was cursed for his pride. In fact it was as a result of this that Satan swore to mislead Adam and his offspring.

Sinning is part of the nature of humans. We are all fallible and have sinned. The story here teaches us that God forgives. God loves the one that sins and repents (regarding that it is an honest repentance from the heart).

And as for Noah, the story is much more than that. 950 years of that story were brutally summarised by you as 'a huge act of genocide.' I did say I was very sleepy *yaaaawn* so I shall go into that one when I wake up.

Azazel said...

Verbally..
Your argument presupposes that a God exists in the first place..
And it is a fallacy to say that

@ herefore it is evident that God intended to place humanity on earth all along. Sure, God forbade Adam and Eve to eat from the fruit, and sure they disobeyed him (Satan played a part there),

Where did it say Satan played a part? Moreover, it said serpent not Satan. Two totally different things.
Verbally please riddle me this, when God created man did he intend for us to be 'immortal' or did he intend for us to die one day??

Chuk said...

@Azazel..the Bible makes it clear that satan played the role in the fall of humanity..he was the serpent and came in the form of it..he intended for us to live forever when he created Adam and Eve but do to our sin, he created death so that we may not live forever in our condition of sin and suffering..He also made it possible for us to be with Him..i dont kno bout u but i cant even imagine living forever like this in this fallen world

Aradi said...

The 4rth CRS is Aradi.

Well, Azazel, you confuse me. On the one hand, Messiah proposes a theory that God was afraid of the repercussions of Adam gaining knowledge, on the other I can't argue against that because I am presupposing the existent of God? That's not consistent.

I believe in the Qur'an, and in the Qur'an it was said that Satan mislead Adam, it was his form of vengeance for being cursed. Refer to my initial post.

And yes, we -are- immortal. God created Adam and his offspring to be immortal. As muslims, we regard this life as insignificant, a mere test. Temporary existence, preparing us for the real life. The final abode. In fact, when we die, we believe that we are merely leaving the shells of our bodies. We have a temporary existence in the grave also and we shall be tested yet again, and then we shall continue our existence in the akhira (hereafter) for eternity. We never truly die.

Now back to Intelligence going against religion. I would have to say that is a very arrogant stance, as the most intelligent people I know are people of religion. I do not have to quote Einstein or Newton's stance on religion. Far from being a source of weakness, it was a source of inspiration for great men. In Islam the one that has knowledge is regarded as higher than the one that does ibadah (worship) frequently. I have said on another post that the first revealed verses of the Qur'an ask mankind to strive for knowledge. Our intelligence does not expose a huge fallacy that we were all following we did not realize, it cleansed our minds and widens our scope.

The Messiah said...

Now Aradi, you're obviously a Muslim. To prove my obedience vs intelligence point, I'll keep it short by asking you one question, actually two:

Do you eat pork? And if no, why not?

Azazel said...

Lol Chuk suffice it to say that it is people like u who make this world a fallen place.

Azazel said...

Aradi tell me if God created Adam and Eve to be immortal, why then would he put a 'tree of life' in the garden of Eden??
Does common sense not dictate that there would be no reason for us to eat from the tree of life if we were already immortal???

Aradi said...

Messiah, I do not eat pork because it is prohibited in my religion.

Not only pork actually, but also other animals like dogs and horses, and meat of animals in certain circumstances, e.g dead animals, or animals killed for religious purposes that are not Islamic. (Sacrifices done for Islamic purposes are always shared out as charity, like the one done in Eid'el Kabir in remembrance of Abraham's ultimate sacrifice)

We only eat meat that is halal i.e.
animals slaughtered around the neck while they're still alive, and then we drain the blood for blood is forbidden also. Jews slaughter their meat also and call it kosher, which is all they ever eat. Several non-muslims, especially here in the UK, prefer the tender halal meat to non-halal.

Don't think us as muslims don't ask questions. We investigate the wisdom behind divine injunctions. Raw animals have parasites in them like worms. Upon cooking, however, these parasites die and we do not get disease or harm from eating the meat. Pork has much more fat than beef, mutton or lamb; when it's cooked, it retains some of its parasitic delights. It doesn't help that they feed on all sorts of garbage. A pig eats everything, from faeces to human bodies.

Something interesting I've heard recently is that a pig has exactly the same internal organs as humans, and that theoretically, a pig's heart could function in a human body. Shiver.

A couple of christians I know don't eat pork as a personal choice. I can say that one of them, a coursemate, succumbed to a bacon panini on a hard day of revision.

Aradi said...

Azazel, I'm not sure there are references in the Qur'an to that tree that Adam and Eve ate of as the Tree of Knowledge.

It is interesting that you don't believe in the immortality of man. Please tell me, Azazel and Messiah, do you have the same views pertaining the origin of the world? How do you reckon the world came into being?

The Messiah said...

Aha! Because your religion told you. That shows your obedience. Now tell me, have you ever questioned why eating pork or bacon is immoral? Did you do a test to prove that eating pig meat causes immoral deeds or cause ppl to be impure or do you simply believe it because your holy book tells you so?