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Thursday, September 17, 2009

THE DAY I LOST MY FAITH!!!



















First of all, I have never revealed this to anyone, but this particular passage in the bible was the straw that broke the camel's back. This made me renounce Christianity altogether. I and a friend used to have this bible questions discussions and so from time to time I would bring up a bible question or something that was bugging me in the bible so that she could answer. And truth be told, this my friend who I shall term as "Goddess" was usually on point when it came to answering bible questions. She did her best to answer my questions about the bible, so on a certain day I discovered this passage in 2 Samuel 12. I had read this passage so many times, but never took the time to really meditate on it, so as usual I brought this passage to the notice of "Goddess" and for the first time in our religious discussion history she did not have an answer. She flatout told me that "controversy, I honestly do not have an answer to this" I thank God that "goddess" is one of those sincere christians who say the truth no matter what.And with this introduction I present this blog post to you.


P.S. So as I was about to post this blogpost, I open my email and staring right at me is an email from my aunty. Who I shall call "Aunty O". Aunty "O" is my favorite aunty and apparently she's discovered that I've become a deist. Surprisingly, I am not worried about whether Aunty O will seek to inform my parents that their "First son" has turned into a deist. My parents are btw, firebrand christians. I am quite relieved, I knew that this day would surely come I do not agree with my parents religion, and it's about time that they know about that. I believe that every man/woman must do two things alone in this world, he/she must do their own believing and their own dying. Anywayz BACK TO THE MAIN POST.

The question is "Is God obligated to follow the laws he himself laid down for us to follow? Or can he flout them whenever he chooses? Does he rule arbitrarily and are we forbidden to question his laws even when he himself fails to obey them? Why is it that so many Christians strongly believe that God should be able to get away with anything? If God kills, lies, cheats, discriminates, and otherwise behaves in a manner that puts the Mafia to shame, that's okay, he's God. He can do whatever he wants.But anyone else who adheres to this same philosophy is said to have had his/her sense of morality, decency, justice and humaneness warped beyond recognition by the very book that is supposedly preaching the opposite.

And I ask you, are we truly all equal in God's eyes? Lets be honest, everyone preaches that everybody is equal in the eyes of the Lord, but is that really the case? Take for example, the book of Deuteronomy 24:16. Where God explicitly commands/states that "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin"

Fast-forward to 2 Samuel 12, God apparently does a roundabout when he kills/murders the innocent child of King David after David had Uriah the husband of his current wife Bethsheeba killed.This is what Nathan the prophet told David
2 Samuel 12 - 13
"For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

13And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. 14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

My fundamental problem with this passage is the very clear and straightforward fact that God cut David some very serious slack and openly flouted his own Law that he himself had created. The child did not deserve to die for the crimes of David. David committed the crime, David deserved to pay for it by himself. Common sense tells we humans, that we do not punish somebody else for the crimes of another, that is totally wrong and if we humans created by God have been able to come to that very same conclusion. Why would God go ahead and break his own law, so that he could protect David? Was David that great a man, that the almighty himself was forced to break a law on his behalf? When Moses disobeyed God by striking the "rock" in exodus God punished him by not letting him into the promised land, when Jonah refused to obey God's orders to go to Ninevah in the book of Jonah, God also punished him by putting him in the belly of a whale for three whole days. When Paul, persecuted Christians in the new testament, God struck him blind for three days. The sins all these people committed ultimately "pale" in comparison to that of King David. Kind David murdered a man, a husband and moreover a God fearing man and King David got to escape scot free. His new born baby had to bear the brunt of his punishment, when God had explicitly stated that the "children will never pay for the sins of the father".

In conclusion, if any one of you can provide me with a clear/succint explanation to this question, I might gradually start to regain faith again.
BY CONTROVERSY

59 comments:

Nydigritti said...

Amazing! I often ask myself the question if all "Men" are created equally as well! Of course, I am not included in the equal equation so I am only able to speak upon my observations....While "waiting" to be discovered by whomever's rib I was removed from,lol! ( I think that he must be from one of those foreign lands that don't get enough press...but, that's neither here nor there) Back to the subject at hand..Maybe, it is that "Men" were created equal but, not given the same tools. E.G. Einstein lacks swagger whereas, many of the "Heart-throbs" lack intelligence and/or the desire to be with a women. Just a thought,lol!

Lady X said...

If all men were created equal then I wonder why we all have different skin tones. I don't think anyone can answer your question.

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible..."-Stuart Chase

Controversy said...

@ Nygritti
Lol @ maybe men were created equal but not given the same tools. Lol maybe.

@ Lady X.
Do we agree on this post? I actually believe that stuart Chase's quote, but I do not believe that I am so far gone, that one cannot persuade me with truth. As u pointed out, it is next to impossible for anybody to provide an answer to the question. if there's no answer to the question, why should i be expected to believe?

Toochukwu said...

God punished all mankind for the sins of Adam and Eve but sacrificed His son Jesus for our salvation. Stop looking for ways to disprove Him for He is merciful and loving but universal law shows that what we do effects others including our own children. Read Exodus 34: 7 and Deuteronomy 5:9.

Anonymous said...

Another "Roundabout" that God did in the bible....He sent His son to die in your place. You should have died.

Anonymous said...

Another "Roundabout" that God did in the bible....He sent His son to die in your place. You should have died for your own sins.

Enoch said...

@Controversy.

Controversy my friend. Very interesting read. If my aunt learns that I'm faithless, she'll blow her top. Just like you, I value the well being of my folks well enough to keep them in the dark about it. Robert Greene put it beautifully in his book 'The 48 laws of power' when he said "Think as you like but behave like others".

The only yawa I have with your post is the intent of refuting the existence of God within the framework of the bible. Arguably, if I'm to play devil's advocate, I could tell you very much like a Christian would, that God is omniscient and as such his ways are above ours. That he is several orders of magnitude more intelligent than us. That while his decision might seem contradictory to us, it makes perfect sense to him in his superior mind. God is to man as man is to ant in an intellectual sense. Being omnipotent, he could grant us a moment of fleeting insight to appreciate his reasoning and we would go like "OH I see, It makes perfect sense for you to kill David's son rather than hurt David. It is not even inconsistent with your earlier laws. I understand now".

I personally prefer to work outside the bible with what I know is true. I do this because, amongst other reasons, its more optimal to step outside a work of fiction to point out its folly than to try playing by its made up rules. Using logical fallacies from the bible to kill the Judeo-Christian-God-idea is kind of like trying to disprove the existence of Middle-earth by identifying inconsistencies in quotes from Frodo and Gandalf. While this is possible, you don't want to limit your reasoning or be at the mercy of the ingenuity of the authors of the fiction. If the bible was absolutely logical and consistent in its presentation of ideas and totally believable, it does not make it any more true. A well crafted lie is a lie all the same.

The bible was written by men. That's incontrovertible. Lets ignore trying to fault an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent God for letting man write the bible despite the fact that the same God proved he can write all by himself, totally unassisted in Daniel 5:5. What I am more interested in is what I call the critical point in the belief system. Critical because it is the point upon which every other aspect of the Judeo-Christian belief rests on. Its kind of like an unstated fundamental premise. Unstated but absolutely totally real. THE ENTIRE BELIEF SYSTEM HANGS FIRMLY ON THE CLAIMS OF A HANDFUL OF MEN. MEN WHO CLAIMED GOD TALKED TO THEM AND SHOWED THEM VISIONS.

(a) They lied
(b) They were fond of consuming hallucinogens
(c) They were more susceptible to subjective spiritual experiences (Mental illness or just an overactive temporal lobe)
(d) They were being manipulated by an advanced alien race to steer humanity from chaos to order with a moral code :)
(e) The Devil spoke to them
(f) God spoke to them

This is by no means an exhaustive list. Why am I obliged to take their word for it and choose (f)? Why shouldn't I believe any other religion with similar claims? Any argument in favor of faith can easily be turned on its head when you consider faith in some opposing belief.

Enoch said...

There are a lot of religions out there that believe in a different God from the judeo-Christian one. Just like Christianity, they have a God that has spoken to them and shown them visions. If these religions have Gods that are blatantly different (like Islam), then all these men that write these books for different Gods all can't be telling the truth. Hardcore believers would suggest that na the devil dey responsible for every other religion, speaking to those "false prophets" and stuff. That only goes to prove my point. The only thing Christians have to hold on to, knowingly or unknowingly, is the credibility of the men that claim to have heard from God.

What was the last thing of importance anyone did based on the credibility of fishermen and people who could see visions of multi-headed dragons and the likes? People who were largely illiterate. Its like putting your life on the line for a book written by some of your villagers that see things.


The bible-lie becomes even more alarming when you consider the wealth of research that suggests that the bible and many religious books from that era are far from original because they have a lot of stories that mirror other books that predate them.

Some Christians counter that knowing God is not an intellectual exercise. That it is based on having a personal relationship with God and that he will talk to you and show you signs and stuff. If that is the case, I wonder what they would say about brain research that has identified the brain region responsible for all this subjective spiritual experiences. It probably wouldn't even bother them if it can all be reproduced artificially. They wouldn't care about people that have "spiritual awakenings" after brain surgery.

My faith was always shaky but I lost it totally when I read some works of Thomas Paine, Bertrand Russell and Frederick Nietzsche.

And by the way, speaking about all men being equal. Me I no gree oh. The average Nigerian child born today has a life expectancy of 46.9 years. That's 20 years less than an Iraqi(where dem dey fight war). The said Nigerian child would significantly be more likely than his western counterpart to have vitamin and mineral deficiencies during his formative years which, amongst many other things, could limit his cognitive development. He would likely be taught by underpaid, underachieving teachers (who perhaps are as cognitively handicapped as he might be unfortunate to be). If he turns out okay, he would have a limited set of industries to have a career in. His mates in "1st world" countries don't face the same dangers with the same likelihood and are infinitely more likely to spawn multi-billion dollar enterprises that dwarf the GDP of Nigeria. All because of the accident of his place of birth. All men are not born equal oh.

Controversy said...

@ Toochukwu.
Did u even read the blog How am i seeking to disprove him? Just admit that you have no answer to my question and be on your way my broda.
@ Anonymous.
Lol @ I should have died for my own sins. Yeah i plan to.

@ Enoch
Why I mostly prefer to refute the bible with passages from the bible is because most christians will not listen nor give u the time of day if u are arguin with them with material that is not from the bible Most christians are not learned in that aspect, they feed what is fed them and all they know is the bible.
True @ the bible was written by men, that is a fact. I am also reading Nietzesch now and that guy was simply brilliant. I keep asking the same question, if all these religions are worshippin the same God. Does that mean that that very same God spoke 2 so many different people? Is our God that confused that he cannot manage only one religion?

Bubbles said...

*sigh*
Controversy.....
I don't even know what to write about this
Good luck with being a Deist

Lady X said...

Oh we do agree on the post. I just really like that quote. Because it shows how those that believe strongly close their eyes to the possibility that what they believe might not be true.

Otas {DUH!} said...

this is soo good it brought tears to my eyes

*standing ovation* bravo, bravo

Africanqueen said...

Controversy...I think we have had this discussion at Length. So I won't have my input.
So I will just laugh, and amuse myself with the replies.

Controversy said...

@ Bubbles.
Lol I will continue doing what I do.I noticed you prooffered no answer, I assume it's because you have none to give.

@ Lady X.
Ah you are right, it really is a shame though. But those people do not even want to know the truth, that is what bothers me greatly.

@ Otas
Thank u hun lol

@ African Queen.
Lol i know we've had this argument tomany times lol. And u still have not given me a sufficient answer

Myne Whitman said...

Deism, how sustainable? Good luck on getting answers.

Controversy said...

Looool @ sustainable.
Deism just makes me remember to think and ask questions.
The question Miss Whitman is. Do you think for yourself?

honey91 said...

uhm controversy....i cant say u havnt brought up a popint here..

i kinda skimmed thru this cus it was a lil long..
nyways...d one thing dat i brought off ur post is dat God can do things He commanded us not to do...
and my reply to dat is we bring it on ourselves...

u mentioned that God killed David's baby because of his sin...u took no notice of y the baby was killed was...it was David's fault jus like every other punishment God mets out to us is our fault

Anonymous said...

in questioning everything abt God remember dt God killin d child hurt David more dn if he himself was kild. God didnt choose 2 kill any of d grown up kids, but d fruit of his adultery dt he loved. even though God said d sins of d father shudnt be taken on d kids n vice versa, dt kid was way 2 young to know anything so technically, David bore his own sin. remember dt wen d baby died, David felt it. while d child was sick, he refused 2 eat, he fasted 4 7days n night beggin God 2 spare d child. d child didnt feel all dt, ok maybe d pain but d mental torture n a whole week of starvatn was done by David. God punished david 4 his own sin

Controversy said...

@ honey91.
U truly disappoint me, so everything is our fault? Ok then we acceppt that the sin was david's fault. Why did the baby then pay for it?
Lol @ God can do anything. So God can do what he commands us not to do? why? because he is GOD? Lmao.
It's like my parents telling me not to steal, and when i see them steal they tell me they can steal because they are my parents. Utter Crap!

@ Anony
Lmao @ the kid was way to young to know anything. Hence the kid should die because he/she did not know anything? Did u know that that kid suffered in pain for 7 days before your heavenly father could see fit to put it out of it's misery?
Lol @ a whole week of starvation was done by david, omg that makes it so much better. A king starved for a week, what torture? Wat pain? See there is a deeper thing here than God disobeyin his rules, am just tryin 2 see what kind of human beings some of u are, the kid was way to young to understand pain? Lmao hahahahahahah i can't stop laughing. A kid dying,is way to young to feel pain. U know this how? Have u ever seen/witnessed a baby die? That u know that babies don't feel pain when they are dying? Honestly this is why socalled chrsitians disappoint me on a daily basis. If u can honestly type something like that and wake up everyday in the morning lookin @ urself then all u chrsitians are headed 2 hell. Wth. "The kid was way to young to know anything"? What do u mean by that? The kid was way to young to understand/know that it was dying in place of it's father? lwkm

BLASPHEMY said...

@toochukwu afta he sent his son to save us WHY ARE STILL BORN IN SIN AND WHY ARE WE REQUIRED TO GIVE OUR LIFE TO HIM OTHERWISE FACE ETERNAL DAMNATION
@Controversy keep it up in the eyes of ALL the gods of religion we r not equal dats y d choose some group of men to be close to them especially Jehovah that jewish deity, he makes Hitler look like a gentle jack when you read all the atrocity he did in the bible!
@Enoch i like your comments

EDJ said...

"If all men were created equal then I wonder why we all have different skin tones."

Err...Lady X, you're gonna have to clarify this comment of yours, what has skin tone got to do with equality?

Mr. Controversy, I understand your point, however one could argue that killing David's son WAS David's punishment. You are operating under the assumption that death is punishment for a child. I could argue that God knew there was only one way to get to David, and that was to take away something very important. Maybe the child was collateral damage,

Of course, many people will have a problem with a child being collateral damage, but in those days what could be worse than losing your heir? What do you propose God should have done to David? As YOU said what David did was worse than all those other people. What punishment would you have given?

Should God have killed Bathsheba instead? Because she was already pregnant when David ordered Uriah killed. Killing her would have still killed the baby.

Plus lets all remember that the 2nd son that David had with Bathsheba turned out to be King Solomon the "wisest King of all".

Finally, remember this is the old testament and we share it with Judaism. It is very harsh and full of drama and violent retribution from God. The New Testament has very little of those things, and it is in the New Testament that Christianity starts. The reason ppl read the Old Testament at all is because Christianity came from Judaism, and Christianity is supposed to be an "upgrade", though I call it a "side-grade"

Controversy said...

EDJ.
I am honestly going to slice up this your argument one by one.
FIrst of all you state that killing david's son acted as a punishment for David.
Ok o.First I have shown you the law, Secondly David committed the crime, thirdly the child was already born, and for 7 whole days God made this baby suffer in pain. Waiting for death to take it out of it's misery.

@ what do i propose God should have done to david?
Is it tomuch to ask to kill david as well, what's wrong with an eye for an eye punishment here? If not kill david, strip him off his kingship as he did King Saul. Lets not forget King Saul. What was King Saul's crime? He neglected to kill every sheep, goat, etc of the amalekites and what does God do to him? He seeks to strip him off the kingship, so if for little things like that God punished ppl greatly, why should the murder of a husband, a wouldbe father be treated in such a callous manner?
Indeed the child was used as collateral damage, and if indeed any child can be used as collateral damage then we need to change our view of babies being blessings. Because if God can discard one as quickly as that, then please those "little things" have ceased to be blessings.
@ Solomon
Please that argument does not make sense, he should not have killed bathsheba because she committed no crime, Solomon ended up being the wisest King on earth, but @ the end of the day he fell out of favor with God did he not? @ the end of the day as the wisest King on earth, he ended up worshipping other Gods.
Oh please stop with that old testament, new testament nonsense. Enough preachers/pastors use passages from both testaments everyday in their churches to deliver sermons.

Enoch said...

@Controversy
You come off as a Jedi of sorts.
Slashing nonsense arguments left right and centre.

ttlolla said...

The bible says David was a man after Gods heart, when the man did wrong boy did he know how to praise God and make his head swell.

That was in the old testament, with the new testament came a more merciful God who no longer strikes people down for their sins.

God said i will have mercy on whom i will have mercy, and that includes you. He is the ultimate God, but you are a xtian cos you can discuss with him, The bible tells us we can reason with God. Why don't you discuss this with the Holyspirit and let him guide you

You are not a saint , but God still forgives you, spares your life and shows you his love, comforts you when you are down , guides you when you are lost but YOU still want to leavr your faith.

I wont say don't leave, but the other option is hell. That does not leave much room for choice or does it?


I do have questions but i wait for his guidiance

Controversy said...

@ Enoch thank you.
U also are a jedi, please can u help me respond to this arguments as well because I seem 2 not be gettin to someppl.

@ ttolla
U say that the with the new testament comes a more merciful God.
Please I have a question for u, if God can change from being merciless to being merciful, is it safe to assume that our God has emotions such as we humans? or is our God bipolar? What kind of all controlling God switches from merciless to merciful? is he bipolar, or is he "human"? or does the bible in effect "lie"?
Lol true @ the bible says God will have mercy on whom he shall have mercy, and can u tell me where that verse is in the bible? That verse is in the new testament, if God is still excluding certain people out in the new testament then what is all this talk we hear of God loving everybody? Should we rephrase it to start saying that "God loves only christians"?
Lol @ I wait for his guidance, u go wait tire.
Lol @ God spares me, that's a joke. Honestly, what does he spare me from? Death? The devil has the power of death, not God. Read your bible.

EDJ said...

1) I am trying to get YOU to see that death is not ALWAYS punishment. Would you have felt better if the child had grown up a bit THEN died? You are saying God should have killed David, but what purpose would that serve? David would be dead, and then what?
Consider it this way, the US Defense Department has spent decades developing/engineering a soldier that could prevent another 9/11 and only this soldier can do the job. One day the soldier goes out and does what David did in this story. Then the Defense Dept. takes his child away from him never to be seen again, but leaves him alive because he will be able to save thousands of lives. That's basically my understanding of what happened here. You may have a problem with the way God handled the matter, but for all intents and purposes God is acting for the greater good.


2) You said "if God can discard one as quickly as that, then please those "little things" have ceased to be blessings."
Lol you act as if you don't live in this decade. Excuse you, but people already act as if children are curses.

3) Bathsheba committed adultery or was she not married when she slept with David?

4) I brought up Solomon to reiterate my point about most of this being for the "greater good". Of course Solomon fell out of favor with God. No one is perfect. Remember I said "wisest King", not "wisest man".

5) Old vs. New Testament
I am simply pointing out the fact that christianity is SUPPOSED to be the answer to the Old Testament's "problem" of excessive negativity.

6) I could argue that you value your life and power over that of a child. Yes! Even though you are complaining over the death of an innocent child thanks to what you believe is God's "hypocrisy". You seem to feel that losing a kingdom or being killed can compare to/surpass losing a young child. You are not David and David is not you. What is terrible punishment for you, is not punishment for others.

5) Finally as far as you attacking the quote "God will have mercy on whom he shall have mercy". I'm confused. I take that quote to mean God will decide whom God will forgive, meaning no-one else should seek to judge.

Controversy said...

@ Edj
Honestly o ken kens i am havin a hard time believin that this is the best u can muster up for this argument.
@ the defense department argument, the defense department friggin COURTMARTIALS soldiers who have disobeyed the law, they don't care if they've spent millions on u, if ur ass has committed a crime, u will be courtmartialed and made to pay for ur crime. I cannot honestly believe that that was the best analogy u could find. Seriously disappointed.
Lol @ for all intents and purposes God is actin for the greater good. Then it goes back to my initial statement that we are not all equal in the eyes of God. Afterall, if he could cut david slack, and could not cut moses, jonah and saul slack then obviously they were not as equal as david.

@ Solomon being wisest King and not man, please mention a more wiser man than solomon?

@ Bathsheba committin adultery, am sorry read ur bible again.That woman was mindin her business and havin her bath when the King ordered for her to be brought to him.U can not honestly blame her for adultery, she was never in control of the situation.

@ your 6th argument.
First let me touch on the argument, David should ahve died for what he did, or @ least pay for what he did. Who the hell is david, dat he cannot pay for killing somebody else? Dat child was sacrificed for it's sin. Ur argument makes no sense and it is sufferin logically.
If indeed u reply that we are not all equal in God's eyes, then i will say to u that we as blacks deserved to be enslaved, we deserved to be beaten and tortured, afterall a lot of Southern plantation owners pointed to the bible to justify their belief in slavery. So what is ur response?

EDJ said...

Oh I forgot to add. As far as you saying:

"What kind of all controlling God switches from merciless to merciful? is he bipolar, or is he "human"? or does the bible in effect "lie"?"

The answer: the kind of God that decided to give all humans free will. God is not "all controlling". God is obviously not "human" or "bipolar" either, otherwise he wouldn't have the patience for certain things that go on today.

I am actually kind of disappointed at the title of the post. If this was really all it took to convert you then clearly you were looking for a reason for a while and finally settled on this one. Which is not surprising. I always find it hilarious that the deists I know come from strong religious backgrounds--the irony! I really think its what happens when parents try to shove beliefs down a child's throat without inviting useful conversation. I will share that my dad is like that, and allows no questions. Thankfully my mother is not, and even though my dad may think HE is the reason I've stayed Catholic, its actually because of my mother who actually allowed me to think for myself and answered my questions.

BLASPHEMY said...

Lol@ttolla honestly i like your comment it shows how simple mind most xtians can be.
1)That was in the old testament, with the new testament came a more merciful God who no longer strikes people down for their sins. like what my good friend controversy said maybe your God is a human with emotional feeling and another thing you just implied here is the fact that most people knew a long time ago that there are two gods operating in the bible the new testament god Elohim likes to act more matured that Jehovah the old testament jewish deity who came out in public to announce to all and sundry that he is a JEALOUS god.
2)Why don't you discuss this with the Holyspirit and let him guide you i would really like to discuss a lot of things with the holy spirit but i the language barrier he speaks in tongues and i speak igbo

EDJ said...

1) I don't understand how YOU don't understand the Defense Dept. argument. As much as I LOVE America, you cannot honestly believe they court martial everyone who deserves it. I think my analogy is fine. It was brought up since you don't seem to see how an heir dying is punishment enough. So I tried to come at it from your point of view, though I believe it was punishment enough.

2) God was acting for the greater good of the people, NOT David. To me, GOD WASN'T CUTTING DAVID ANY SLACK.

4) As far as I can tell, adultery is adultery whether or not you are in control of it. I understand that she was not in control of the situation but she seemed fine in the end.

5) Lol my 6th argument makes perfect sense because YOU believe that the child dying was NOT enough punishment for David. I can only infer that if you were in the same situation you would believe that you had been "cut some slack" since only your child died and not you, and you didn't lose your kingdom. Which is why I said you seem to value your life and power over that of a child.

You think David got special treatment, and I don't. So, there's no way to come at the whole "equality" argument.

P.S: I don't think Solomon was the wisest man because at the end of his reign he became quite foolish. There are plenty of people who live their lives from beginning to end with limited amounts of foolishness.

Controversy said...

@ EDJ
My parents did not try to shove any religion down my throat. they have actually been very lenient compared to what i've seen from other parents.
Lol @ u not thinkin they have courtmartialed everybody. Do u know this to be a fact? if they can prove u committed a crime, they courtmartial u. The argument makes no sense, the dept of defense courtmartials ppl who commit crimes. They don't courtmartial the children of the ppl and why would the dept of defense take the child of any soldier? The argument makes no SENSE.
Lol @ greater good of the ppl. Haha just like the same argument they used for AIG. it was to big to fail, EDJ nobody is that valuable to the ppl, if u commit a crime u pay for it. That's what is called Justice. Ur son does not pay for it, ur mother does not pay for it. U PAY FOR IT!!
Wtf @ the bathsheba argument, u are honestly arguin 4 straws right now. U no longer have anything 2 say and u are graspin for anything to hold on to. Please if u cannot find an answer, it's ok stop graspin for straws. The woman was forced by the King to come into his presence, he had sex with her, he was King, he was in control. That's the end of it.

@
if i committed a crime, infact if i killed somebody and instead of going to prison, they sent my son to prison. I might be sad for my son, but @ the end of the day i would be hugely relieved that my son had paid for my crime. EDJ again stick 2 arguin with logic here.
It is so obvious that david got special treatment, please i don't want to launch into cussing. Moses did not hit a rock, he paid for it by not seein the promised land.His son did not pay for it, his mother did not pay for it. Jonah disobeyed God, his son did not pay for it, his mother did not pay for it. David committed two sins, he committed adultery and murdered a man/husband/would be father in cold blood. And all he gets is his son being substituted in his stead? Please use that brain God gave u to process this.
If u don't think Solomon was the wisest man, who then was the wisest?

Controversy said...

Looooooooooooooooooooooooool blasphemy u don kill me with laughter today o. Hahahah @ language barrier he speaks in tongues, i speak igbo. hahahhahaahhahahahahahhahaah LWKMD

EDJ said...

Well an example is the simple fact that Dick Cheney is not on trial for allowing torture. This is evidence enough that not everyone in the government gets the punishment they deserve (even though in David's case I seriously believe the punishment fit the crime)...
You don't have to take my argument so literally. Obviously in the "real world" the Defense Department doesn't kill children. Unless they are the children of suspected terrorists--which is what they threatened to do to some1 who MAY have had information on Osama wasn't talking. Did you ever read about that? When the CIA told a prisoner they would kill his children as his punishment for MAYBE working with Osama?

You don't think King David was too big to fail, but as the "hope" of his people I think he was. I do not think AIG is too big to fail because if they go under some1 else will replace them. As you were perusing the bible coming up with reasons why it is wrong, did you happen to read about a viable replacement for King David?

There is no argument about Bathsheba. It was adultery with or without her consent. You are viewing this from the "sexual harassment lawsuit" point of view. He was in a position of power so all the blame falls on him. I am not blaming her for what happened. I am simply saying she had sex with some1 she was not married to.

I am also really glad you admitted you would be "hugely relieved" if your son paid for a crime you committed. So, with such obvious disregard for your own child, why are you getting "mad" at God for someone else's child that died thousands of years ago?

You believe Moses, Jonah, etc. all got punished for what they did while David did not. However as I said over and over again, not everyone sees punishment the same way. The whole point of punishment is to do the most damage for each situation. Since everyone is different, everyone's punishment will be different. I believe David valued his child's life over his own life and his kingdom so God took away the child instead of the other 2 options.

P.S: if you actually wanna have a conversation about this we can, but you need to stop treading the line that separates "making your point" and "insulting someone".

Enoch said...

@EDJ
I avoid making points with the bible, because its mostly a work of fiction. Like I said earlier, "Using logical fallacies from the bible to kill the Judeo-Christian-God-idea is kind of like trying to disprove the existence of Middle-earth by identifying inconsistencies in quotes from Frodo and Gandalf. While this is possible, you don't want to limit your reasoning or be at the mercy of the ingenuity of the authors of the fiction. As in, If the bible was absolutely logical and consistent in its presentation of ideas and totally believable, it does not make it any more true. A well crafted lie is a lie all the same."

However, a few points.

(1) On the DoD issue. Cheney is no moron. He is arguably the poster child for corporate America. Consequently, its ridiculous to suggest that he would have committed all his crimes without covering his tracks legally. That's why He had Addington, Yoo and most of the DoJ perform all kinds of legal gymnastics legalizing a plethora of hideous things to cover his behind. I'm not ruling out the argument of impartiality in the legal system but Cheney is a very bad example. To the larger point, We are human hence we are partial by definition. God isn't, he is allegedly perfect.

(2) I appreciate your perspective concerning punishment being customized to suit the punished but how do u know David loved his son the most? If David happened to value some hypothetical friend more than everything else, would God kill the innocent friend as punishment?

(3) The bible is full of contradictions. In favor of your argument I can quote Isaiah 65:6-7"... I will pay it into their laps - Both your sins and sins of your fathers". On the other hand I can buttress Controversy's point by pointing to Ezekiel 18:20"The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father". Why is an omniscient being incapable of making up his mind? Seems more anthropomorphic than divine.

(4) I would be glad if u can explain why Nathan first said to David "The Lord has cleared away your sin, you are not going to die..." If that is not cutting slack, i duno what is. You seem to be suggesting God is thinking "Hey Dave, I've cleared your sin so I won't punish you with the second worst punishment on your value scale(taking your life) rather I will punish you with the worst punishment for your value system(killing your son)".

(5) The holes in the bible gives everyone room to misinterpret it. For example u have claimed David loved his son the most and you've justified God's infanticide suggesting its for the greater good. With all these gaps, why didn't God in his omniscience anticipate this problem and write a perfect book himself? He proved he is perfectly capable of writing unassisted in Daniel 5:5.

(6) Say u manage to convince Controversy that there is no inconsistency in God's behavior with respect to David, which you are doing a very poor Job at, do you really believe you can explain away all the gaffes in the bible? Including in Hosea 1:2 where God instructs Hosea to marry a prostitute? or 1Kings 22:21-23 where he encourages lying? The list of such passages in the bible is of doubt inspiring length.

(7) Why do you believe the bible? What about your answer is not applicable to some other holy book of a different religion?

(8) If your answer to (7) is from the bible, would you be any different if you had grown up in a different faith with a different book with the same applicable logic? As in, If hypothetically your dad had rewritten the bible swapping God for Lucifer for example and schooled you in it, would your answer be any different?

(9) what are your thoughts on the bible being plagiarized? Ever heard of this?

I find it Ironic that Christians with the intent of worshiping a creator are instead worshiping their own creation. God is man made. You have seen no evidence of him yet you believe. And at the foundation of your belief are claims of men, like yourself, to have heard and seen from him. Your belief system is anchored on human credibility.

Controversy said...

@ EDJ
Honestly i am tryin hard not to laugh. Lol @ did i find a viable replacement for david. Wat a ludicrous argument, God was able to find a replacement for King Saul was he not? Surely it would not be hard to replace David. King Saul disobeyed God by refusin 2 kill sheep, goat, and God looked for his replacement. David kills a man and committs adultery and he gets off scot free? And dat all makes sense to u?
Sorry i have to ignore this ur dept of defense argument because it does not make sense. If u can prove that a soldier committed a crime, even General Petraeus himself is not immune from being court martialed. Idk what ur talking about honestly.
Edj look @ it this way, a man commits a crime and pays for the sin. Why is this hard for u to grasp? This has nothing to do with punishment, it has everything to do with justice. Remember even when Nathan gave the analogy to david about teh rich man stealin the poor man's sheep. Wat was david's reaction? David ordered that the man be found, and vowed dat such a man would be put to death. Why didn't david say that the man's son be put to death for what the man did? If david could grasp it, why can't u? Is it really that hard?

Controversy said...

@ enoch.
Lol @ God is allegedly perfect. Lmao.'Haha @ would God kill the hypothetical friend. Enoch my man, thank u for bringin ur own dose of reason/logic to this post.
I just do not understand how an allknowing/powerful God can be so incapable of makin up his mind. Like is it really that hard? Come to think of it, this God is really havin/displayin human tendencies.
Damn Enoch u brought up Hosea, lol i was going to bring that up in one of my blog posts. Do u know @ a fellowship of mine, i brought this Hosea thing up. I asked them, if a pastor in this day and age married a prostitute and came to the congregation and told u Guyd's dat God directed him to marry the prostitute. would u believe him? or wouldn't u throw the pastor out of the church? they could not give me a succint answer.

nonny said...

@Controversy
Has any 1 been able to convince you
are you even ready to be convinced?

EDJ said...

@ Enoch
I understand your point about not using the bible as the basis for an argument because it is a work written by men. I do believe part of it is probably made up, and I AGREE that there are inconsistencies. In this case of David however, I am gonna have to say everything looks ok to me.

(1) There IS proof that Cheney knew about torture and allowed it to happen, so he did not cover all his tracks. It was the present atty general's decision to leave him alone probably in attempt to avoid pissing off more republicans. Just FYI.

(2) "If David happened to value some hypothetical friend more than everything else, would God kill the innocent friend as punishment?"
Yes, based on my argument. However, as part of my argument I would say that said friend would not be killed if they would serve a greater purpose for the ppl of Israel.

(3) "Why is an omniscient being incapable of making up his mind? Seems more anthropomorphic than divine."
As you said, humans wrote the bible.

(4) As far as your point about Nathan, MY point is not that God cleared away anyone's sin. My point is that God punished David as best fit David's value system.

(5) I have asked myself many many many times why God didn't just take a bunch of stone tablets (a la 10 commandments) and send them on down with the aid of Heaven Express Mail. Just like I ask myself why God allowed Eve to eat the daggone apple in the first place. If you wanna go into bible inconsistency we can do this all day. That's why I take stories 1 at a time. As far as David is concerned his story is not strange.

(6) There is no way I can convince Controversy God is not inconsistent. One back and forth on blogger cannot make you a
"believer". How can I compete with years of whatever madness he has seen in churches or heard from others? I am not trying to convert anyone. I am sharing my opinion. You think its illogical, fine. I think it is illogical that some1 can use the actions of men and a book written BY men as their reason for leaving a religion. It would be like if I decided that because a few black ppl stole from me, all black people are thieves.
Yes, the bible is the basis for Christianity, but only in a perfect world would it answer all your questions.

(7) I believe parts of the bible because they make sense to me. I am not claiming Christianity is unique in its belief system. I am fine with what I have and the answers I have and see no need to look around. I went to the store, I bought the outfit, I'm happy with my purchase. To continue with the clothing analogy: I am not trying to make the outfit "fit" everyone, just showing you why it is not ok to call me illogical while I wear it.

(8) First, I don't quote the bible. In these conversations I almost never do, and it is BECAUSE I know of its inconsistencies. I am catholic and have spent most of my life being quoted the bible by other branches of Christianity trying to get me to stop being catholic. I do not like when ppl quote the bible as the end all be all of an argument. It has never made an impact on me, and as such I extend everyone else the courtesy of not doing that. Everyone can read a book and quote it...so what? If some1 swapped out Lucifer for God and I grew up learning that the person would have a lot to answer for

(9) I don't really care if the bible was plagiarized. Christianity is not the oldest religion in the world, therefore it stands to reason part of its traditions must have come from somewhere. I'm not a school teacher taking off points for plagiarism.

If you do not believe in God, then good. It takes nothing away from me if I believe in God. The 10 commandments do they make sense to you? Does "Love Thy Neighbor" make sense to you? Does "Do unto others..." make sense to you? etc etc. You can pick at the inconsistencies in the bible/religions all you want, but in the end it does not hurt a person to have a belief system. Studies have shown it even helps a person, so why should I cut myself off from something that helps me cope?

EDJ said...

@ Controversy.

"God was able to find a replacement for King Saul was he not?"
YES. The replacement was David. The same David that helped the Israelites win a war and then bore Solomon. So, I could STILL argue that Saul dying was for the greater good while David dying would have served no purpose except to deprive the Israelites of a necessary king. Did you find a replacement? Who would have succeeded David and still done everything that was needed?

Again, with the DoD problem. People get away with crimes regardless of evidence because of an imperfect legal system or some legal technicality. I still don't see how you don't get that, and it is naive of you to assume every single person convicted is guilty or every single person un-convicted is innocent.

YES a person should be punished for a crime they commit. No-one is arguing otherwise. However human beings are not "all-knowing" which is why God's actions seem confusing (at best) and downright hypocritical (at worst). In my opinion David was punished.

If you think he wasn't maybe it will make you feel better to believe that he was punished later? After death? Or is it a requirement of yours that the punishment must be an extremely public one for it to be effective?

Imagine if you had the power to see everything that could happen in the future? Wouldn't some of your actions be different? Say you have this all-knowing power and one day you see a woman crossing the street with a child in a stroller. You KNOW for a fact this child will become a killer one day and destroy many many lives. This woman's stroller gets away from her and there is a way for you to stop the stroller from being hit by an oncoming truck. But, you don't help her. Child dies, and hundreds of lives in the future are saved. Then everyone around you starts yelling and asking you why you didn't try to save the child. But of course you can't tell them why, or you do tell them and everyone assumes you are crazy.

Now, I am NOT saying that every child whose stroller is hit by a truck would have grown up to be a serial killer (before you say this analogy doesn't make sense to you either). I am also not saying every death is for a good reason. I am simply saying that in that situation as the "decider" your actions confused everyone around you and disappointed many people.

Try and see things from a perspective other than your own. You expect everything that happens/happened to make sense to you? Is that your requirement for returning to Christianity? That another human must explain things to your own satisfaction? Lol, if that is the case then you will be waiting until the day you die. That is never going to happen.

Controversy said...

@ nonny
i am ready to be convinced, bring sensible arguments to the table and i will accept it.
Lol huh? Saul led the israelites to wars as King and he still won, read your bible EDJ. Moreover, solomon was not that big of a deal as i pointed out. The only significant thing that dude did was to build the temple. Stop givin him undue attention, and him being the wise man that he was, he soon fell out of love with that his imaginary friend.
As for the DOD problem, no it is naive of u to think that u can use such an outrageous analogy and expect me to accept it. DOD trains thousands of soldiers, if a soldier is caught and brought to their attention, they will take action. Come on think logically. They would not go and take the baby of that soldier and then make the baby pay for it's father's sin. Stop with the DOD analogy, it is dead like gosh. It never made sense.
Ehn in ur twisted opinion, u would probably have Hitler's mother put to death for the sins of Hitler. Wat nonsense, in ur opinion david was punished. How was he punished?
EDJ honestly am havin a hard time believin dat u wud argue like this, it's like u totally do not have anything else to say and ur graspin for straws. SMH @ does the punishment have to be public to be effective, so now u are stupidly implyin on something sayin dat maybe DAvid was punished and we don't know. U are ASSUMING. Please argue with facts that u've read and know.
Hahah wat a dumb ass analogy @ the all knowing shit. U think that hasn't been discussed already? U are hella dumb for that EDJ am sorry. So because u can see into the future, u now kill the child over a crime he has not yet committed? U do know that that has been used by humans also. no matter wat kind of insane ass future seeing power u have, u do not kill/charge somebody with a crime the person has not yet to commit. USe ur friggn brain here like gosh.
U just represented christianity as what it is today, simply illogical. ur perspective is the wackest perspective i've ever come across while arguin with christians, honestly u advocate killing children before they have committed sins? if ur God is all knowing, tell me why did he not forsee that Sin would still exist after killin everybody with the flood? Wat was the point? He wanted to restart all over and he failed miserably.
Ok am sorry for really tryin 2 insult u, but I cannot for the life of me believe that this is the best u could do. It's such an amateur argument and i've honestly heard better arguments.

Controversy said...

@ nonny
i am ready to be convinced, bring sensible arguments to the table and i will accept it.
Lol huh? Saul led the israelites to wars as King and he still won, read your bible EDJ. Moreover, solomon was not that big of a deal as i pointed out. The only significant thing that dude did was to build the temple. Stop givin him undue attention, and him being the wise man that he was, he soon fell out of love with that his imaginary friend.
As for the DOD problem, no it is naive of u to think that u can use such an outrageous analogy and expect me to accept it. DOD trains thousands of soldiers, if a soldier is caught and brought to their attention, they will take action. Come on think logically. They would not go and take the baby of that soldier and then make the baby pay for it's father's sin. Stop with the DOD analogy, it is dead like gosh. It never made sense.
Ehn in ur twisted opinion, u would probably have Hitler's mother put to death for the sins of Hitler. Wat nonsense, in ur opinion david was punished. How was he punished?
EDJ honestly am havin a hard time believin dat u wud argue like this, it's like u totally do not have anything else to say and ur graspin for straws. SMH @ does the punishment have to be public to be effective, so now u are stupidly implyin on something sayin dat maybe DAvid was punished and we don't know. U are ASSUMING. Please argue with facts that u've read and know.
Hahah wat a dumb ass analogy @ the all knowing shit. U think that hasn't been discussed already? U are hella dumb for that EDJ am sorry. So because u can see into the future, u now kill the child over a crime he has not yet committed? U do know that that has been used by humans also. no matter wat kind of insane ass future seeing power u have, u do not kill/charge somebody with a crime the person has not yet to commit. USe ur friggn brain here like gosh.
U just represented christianity as what it is today, simply illogical. ur perspective is the wackest perspective i've ever come across while arguin with christians, honestly u advocate killing children before they have committed sins? if ur God is all knowing, tell me why did he not forsee that Sin would still exist after killin everybody with the flood? Wat was the point? He wanted to restart all over and he failed miserably.
Ok am sorry for really tryin 2 insult u, but I cannot for the life of me believe that this is the best u could do. It's such an amateur argument and i've honestly heard better arguments.

EDJ said...

Remember that in my DOD analogy I never said just ANY soldier. I said the ONE person to prevent another massive disaster. I didn't say some random military person. What has Hitler got to do with this? I've been saying in my opinion David WAS punished by losing his child.

"So now u are stupidly implyin on something sayin dat maybe DAvid was punished and we don't know."
I WAS trying to come at it from YOUR point of view that David was not punished. MY opinion is that David was punished, and I've been saying that he was punished, my opinion has never changed.

You don't understand me, and this is FINE, but did I insult you?

You are being wayyy too literal with all this. I clearly said that my analogy was to show a situation where the "decider" did something that nobody else understood. If I was part of the crowd in the story I would probably be yelling at the person who didn't save the child myself.

You are getting HUNG UP on the idea of a child dying. It is a SAD event, VERY sad, but trying to make sense of it WITH logic will not find you an answer.

You really need to look up the definition of the word "analogy". I'm not sure you understand that it is used to show certain similarities between two situations NOT complete duplication of a situation. My DOD analogy was to show punishment handed out to a person based on their value system and their purpose in life. My child in stroller analogy was to point out actions being taken that do not make sense to everyone but served a purpose.

Of course you think all this is illogical. Isn't that the whole point of your post? That you don't believe? You may think my perspective is the "wackest" you've heard so far on this issue, but I never claimed to be an expert/scholar on the bible, religion, etc. So, of course on this issue there are better arguments than mine out there! You've heard better arguments. Great, what were they? I'd love to know.

EDJ said...

I am done having this conversation with you, because you cannot seem to do it without insulting me.

Everyone has questions, but the difference between you and I is that I have come to terms with the fact that not everything in my religion makes sense all the time--and I am OKAY with that.

It is not an easy realization to live with--not having all the answers--but that is a simple fact of life. God or no God, faith or no faith, things will NEVER make sense all the time.

When something bad/confusing happens people choose different ways to cope/understand what happened. Some people see a shrink, others turn to religion, others choose to discard religion, a select few choose to end their lives, etc. Your method is not better than mine (nor is mine better than yours) it is simply different.

If being a deist is your answer, then congratulations! I am not trying to convince you otherwise, and I never tried. I was just sharing my personal opinion.
If there were a deist "bible" that I had read I would probably be able to come up with multiple arguments about it too because nothing is 100% correct.

Why don't you write your next blog post about why you are a deist without once referring to Christianity? Don't write something like: "I am a deist because Christianity doesn't make sense & all Christians are illogical"
Write something along the lines of: "I am a deist because deism does x,y,z for me."

Perhaps you can convince others to join you even?

Controversy said...

@ EDJ
I am sorryyyyy please accept my apology. Lol i mean honestly it's teh passsion that got to me lol.
My point was that both the DOD analogy and the Child stroller analogy both of them do not work. As both of them have never happened, u cannot bring once case to me to prove that the DOD knew fully well that soldiers had committed crimes, and they had proof about it and did not take action. In the vietnam war, all the soldiers dat committed dastardly acts where court martialed. Abu Ghrahib, Guatanamo, i have numoerous examples to back me up. Yes u are fine with not understandin ur religion, has it ever occured to u that maybe u are unable to understand ur religion because the religion is not real?
I am not in the business of convertin ppl to my religion, i believe that every man and woman must do two things alone in this life. They must do their own believing and their own dying. I might argue against christianity but @ the end of the day, it's every man and woman for themselves.

Enoch said...

@EDJ
Ego, that's my cousin's name. Didn't know I had your gender wrong. I promise I'll apologize. You came off as a smart and independent thinker, naturally, I assumed you are a guy.

LOL. Just kidding.

1) I am unaware of Cheney okaying something he had not created the legal ramifications for. Anyone that went out of those crazy rules to do crazier stuff is responsible for his/her own actions. It is not Cheney's job to stop all the crazies. Being a ruthless guy, he'll let such things slide while being smart enough not to sign them off. He has plausible deniability, so any litigation riding on that is moot. The interplay of politics and social-justice behind Eric Holder's decision to ignore Cheney is ambiguous at best. We are not in the administration or in Eric's head. Again, Cheney is a bad example. I am at least glad you concede that this is man's imperfection and God is supposed to be perfect but apparently isn't.

2) I take your silence on the first part to mean you just happened to guess that David's son was most valuable to him. How much of your belief is based on guessing? God will kill whatever David loves the most to punish him? Including a righteous friend who perhaps loves his life the most and so gets punished for no reason? This goes against Job 8:20 and Isaiah 45:21. You're creating at least 2 more contradictions for every 1 you stumble to justify. Even if this weird logic of God's justice system you have invented was true, perhaps David could have exploited a loophole in God's jurisprudence by directing his affection at something strongly bound to the people of Israel, you know, like all the people of Israel. That way he would avoid punishment all together. Or let me guess, God just works down his value chain until he identifies something he likes that serves no greater purpose for Israel? EDJ, this is a problem. Taking liberties to cook up reasons to justify an illogical book. If you reserve the right to be creative with making up your own idea of God why don't you start your own religion and make it all up?

3) You concede that the bible is riddled with errors injected by human authors. How can you know that the portions that make sense to you which you live your life by aren't just errors?

4) My point was that your point doesn't make sense because the point God made through Nathan by pointing out he had cleared David's sin, pointedly, was that he was sparing his life. Cutting him some slack. See my point?

5) see#2

6) I am more inclined to believe that, like me, Controversy keeps an open mind. Ever ready to relinquish his beliefs for the truth if his beliefs turn out false. That's a strong tenet of a rationalist. "I think it is illogical that some1 can use the actions of men and a book written BY men as their reason for leaving a religion." Even when the book betrays reason and repeatedly makes the case against itself as true and a divine word of God? I think it is illogical that you think this is illogical. Furthermore, I find it even more illogical that you'll subscribe to an idea that means all practitioners of all religions should hold fast to their beliefs no matter how far whatever holy books they believe in go to show they are believing nonsense. Consider that while imagining that your parents birth you into a different faith you currently detest, perhaps, Satanism.

Enoch said...

7) You misunderstood my question a little. How do you know the writings of the Dalai Lama or the teachings of the Hindu God Vishnu wouldn't make more sense to you? Using your outfit metaphor; does it matter that you could perhaps return that outfit and get two more that are all round better, make you happier and cost a third the price of the first? And where does truth factor into all this? The truth is no respecter of persons it comes naked without trying to appeal to anyone's senses. Walter Freeman the lobotomist felt it made sense to him to lobotomize people to cure them of mental disorders. He mutilated and killed several people because a lie made sense to him. Are you cozying up to a sensible lie? Rejecting the truth because it appears senseless? Are you proudly a Walter Freeman?

8) My point of this question was to illustrate the roundabout logic of religious beliefs. Believing in a God solely because a book tells you so and believing in the validity of the book solely because the book tells you so. The kind of thing I don't expect an educated soul to fall for.

9) "I don't really care if the bible was plagiarized." Interpreted to mean "I don't care what I believe in". How about you join my religion dedicated to a three legged Babangida god in white briefs and an omniscient potbelly managing the world from Jupiter's moon?

"It takes nothing away from me if I believe in God". This is a classic mistake a lot of people make. Let me use my below average brain to elucidate. I'll use a scenario I stole from a Nigerian movie.

Imagine you a Taxi driver working hard to make ends meet. You have a son who is ill and deteriorating daily but you can't afford the medical bills needed to heal him. One fine day while doing your taxi rounds, a stranger forgets a huge sum of money in your taxi cab. Just enough to pay for your son's medical bills. Being a strong believer of the word of God, you ignore the pleas of your husband to use the money to save your son rather you worked tirelessly to find the owner of the cash and returned it. A couple of days later your son dies.

To clear all doubt, If I were in the same situation I would not hesitate to choose the life of my son over some arbitrary moral standard. When I do get married and have a son, I would love him that much. Damn the consequences, be it jail time or death.

In case you missed it, religious beliefs come with a load of moral baggage designed for an oversimplified world which while at the surface appear innocuous and do have value in most situations, can take away from you if there is no reward in heaven and there isn't.

I am at least glad you realize your belief is a coping mechanism. Might be smarter to treat it just as such and nothing more.

innuda said...

SOOOOOO DEEP..
I have asked myself this questions over and over again.

The number one question always swirling in my head is IF God is meant to be the all knowing and all seeing,then WHY are we stressing ourselves trying to BE that good,upright alwayst striving to be you know just "good" when he already(supposedly)knows what choices we will make and what paths we will walk even before we ourselves know it.It means he knows we will commit adultery,steal,bear false witness on a certain day in our lives,YET we are made to feel so bad and guilty when it was already pre-ordained?
ABI,is HE no longer the all knowing and all seeing one?
The word says HE knew us before we were created ba?
So in that instance,SOMETHING must have been written against each one of our lives,that will now play out on earth,every single day till we are six feet below.Meaning HE knows it all.
So if i am making sense,it's these things that make me ask..
KINI F*CKING BIG DEAL?
Why do we humans give ourselves a hard time when what will be will be,has already been,and will always be...ya get me?????
***okay,me too,i dey confuse myself now,but this are the things i battle with daily.

Controversy said...

@ Enoch.
Bros do you write? U should honestly own a blog. Or join our own blog, u are definitely that friggin good.

@ Nnuda
Lol @ kini fuckin big deal, nnuda this world is complex. And religion helps ppl put off thinkin about how to understand the world. ppl do not want to think for themselves, it's a chore. 2% of ppl think, 3% think that they think, and 95% would rather die than think

Enoch said...

@Controversy
Just started one. Doubt that it would interest anyone. Using to let off steam and muse about stuff most people find uninteresting. Prolly won't update it often. But I've got one now.

Controversy said...

Nevertheless bro,
i shall follow it.

ttlolla said...

Any how, controversy and blasphemy, nothing anyone says to you can convince you, faith , any kind of faith is from within, so if you will one day become a muslim, xtian, buhdist wateva; it will come from inside you.

Good luck

Controversy said...

@ miss ttolla
if u present a reasonable argument backed with facts lol. We shall lend u our ears/hearts. Afterall the name of the blog is, WE WANT TRUTH. Not WE WANT YOU TO BELIEVE OUR OWN BRAND OF TRUTH

EDJ said...

HA my head hurts and I would love to reply every1 but I am at work and so only have time for a short note.

@Controversy: I am ignoring you so hahaha!! (:-P

@Enoch: I too shall follow your blog and add you to my Fave Sites on MY blog. (be happy).

This was interesting despite the fact that nobody learned anything new. Perhaps I shall write something controversial on my blog and drag every1 over there to comment. Perhaps something along the lines of: "Nigerians are Evil" or "All Men in NY Are Useless" (Not sure if that last one is controversial). Lol

EDJ said...

HA my head hurts and I would love to reply every1 but I am at work and so only have time for a short note.

@Controversy: I am ignoring you so hahaha!! (:-P

@Enoch: I too shall follow your blog and add you to my Fave Sites on MY blog. (be happy).

This was interesting despite the fact that nobody learned anything new. Perhaps I shall write something controversial on my blog and drag every1 over there to comment. Perhaps something along the lines of: "Nigerians are Evil" or "All Men in NY Are Useless" (Not sure if that last one is controversial). Lol

Controversy said...

Lol u have no answer EDJ hence why u cannot reply.
I love enoch's blog lol

Enoch said...

@Controversy
Glad u like it. Just random yarns. It will get more pedantic.
@EDJ
In the least we learned a lot about ourselves. Don't worry, you'll soon cross over from the dark side :)

Controversy said...

Looool @ come over from the dark side.

Tisha said...

If you want your faith back. Ask God to show Himself to you and then read the book of John.

No matter what happens to me, i will believe God. (many things have happened that have tested my faith but i hold on and i run the race that has been set before me with patience)

I love Jesus and i would be so glad if you would meet Him too.

get this: religion is not the same thing as actually meeting Jesus

Controversy said...

And have u actually met Jesus?
Or do you think that u have? Lol @ ask God to talk to me or show himself to me. If God could only show himself to two profphexts out of the thousands in the bible.. Why would he show himself to lil ole me? ehn