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Wednesday, October 6, 2010

WHEN IS IT OK TO STEAL LAND FROM OTHER PEOPLE???



Long time no blog post from me, I apologise but I was busy with school and also with planning the best Nigerian Independence Day Party for California. Three of our beloved contributors were in attendance at that event, Vanity, Afrikim and Messiah. The party was fun and am glad that it's over so I can focus on better things, most importantly school.

So forgive me if am back on that religious tip but this one came to me today as I was thinking about the Native Americans and their terrible plight at the hands of them Americans lol. 

If you are a student of American History, you will remember that the 'white man' came and basically took over the land that was already occupied by the Native Americans. They forged false treaties, they lied, they conquered and they basically forced the Native Americans of land that was already theirs and there were instances of genocide perpetuated by the Europeans . Now most people generally point to that episode of American History as a terrible terrible thing that should never have happened. 

But then this got me to thinking of other times in history in which people have been forcibly forced of their lands and as usual I always find something in the Holy book to back up my point LOL. 

Do you all remember the time when God promised Abraham and his descendants the land of the Canaanites? 

Genesis 15:18-21

On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates - the land of the Kenites,KenizzitesKadmonitesHittitesPerizzitesRephaitesAmoritesCanaanitesGirgashites and Jebusites."

The verse clearly shows that there were people who were living in those lands already before God decided to play bully and kicked them out so his 'precious little jews' could have a land to live in.

My question then is this, in one instance, what the americans did to the native americans is seen by many to be wrong abi? But then what about what the Israelites did to the people of those nations living in those lands, is it also wrong? Or is it made right because God promised it to them?

Now if you say yes it is right because God promised it to them, do tell, how does one tell what God has promised a person and what he hasn't? Afterall the Europeans could easily have stated that God told them to take the land the Native Americans occupied and they would be well within their biblical rights to claim such. After all, if God could promise it to the Jews, he could also promise it to the Europeans. 


AZAZEL

18 comments:

Kparaga said...

The Bible is not a history textbook. God didn't give nobody shit. But u agree with that so that is no fun. lol.

I think people have always competed for resources. Be it food, water, land, pussy, whateva. Who is the rightful owner of land? Na dem papa manufacturer am? Survival of the fittest is how things work, I think. The strong survive and the weak do the dishes, with a smile, or get "fired".

Do i endorse genocide and all that stuff? hell no. I'm just saying, looking at both nature and human history, that pattern seems, at least to me, to be somewhat consistent. Maybe that's just the way it is.

How we interpret these events is another story, and at a period in history, before knowledge of our world was acquired scientifically, it shouldn't IMHO be considered unreasonable that people had "God did it" interpretations for events like that (I think they had "God/the gods did it" answers for pretty much everything). It appears in most cultures and isn't exclusive to the Judaic/Christian tradition. They(Jewish History) are just the most popular in the West,are better documented than the "history" of most other cultures, and so get shitted on by people appalled by either religion, or the "white man".I'm of the opinion that if the Jews or the white man didn't do it, someone else probably would have.

BTW there are very good reasons to believe Israelites were most likely not the first, or only ones, to massacre the Canaanites. They were, according to archaeological records, easy target for neighbors, had been burned and ravaged on numerous occasions before the Israelites even showed up. It is even possible they just took over an already devastated land and people (This is history as reconstructed by historians based on the archaeological evidence and may not be matter of fact) Let me know if u need some sources or whateva and i'll try get u sumtin.

Azazel said...

I didn't agree with it or disagree with it Kparaga.

My point was this, most ppl who read that chapter of the bible do not seem to have a problem with it because afterall 'God promised the land to them' regardless of the fact that there were already ppl living there.
My question then is this, is genocide then ok if God permitted it?

2cute4u said...

Oh No God Please!
Azazel.. Just not today abeg, try not to corrupt my belief and thoughts..
I don't want to reason like you!
It's wrong to take land.
But it was right for the Israelites to take land because the previous land owners had displeased God. It's the way I see it.

Kparaga said...

@Azazel.

haha.I understood ur question, and I thought I answered it in the 1st part of my comment. I'll try to make sense this time.

If one believes there is a supreme God and that he/she is in complete charge, then it isn't IMO unreasonable that events are explained as "God did it". Also, 6 thousand years ago, "genocide" (Wasn't complete genocide sef cause the Israelites and many Canaanites cohabited, even according to the Bible) was not exactly out of the ordinary. I'm just trying to create the context.

Now, if u look, later in the Old Testament, When the Babylonians, i think, conquered the Israelites. destroyed the temple, captured and dispersed the Israelites, that was also explained as a God endorsed event. They had displeased God, and he used the Babylonians to punish them(Just as 2cute4u stated in her comment about the Israelites.) SO it wasn't just conquest that was explained as Goddidit, but also defeat, captivity, and exile. God was believed to be in complete control of their history, so EVERYTHING was explained as Goddidit.

SO what I was trying to say was that they didn't use God to justify their invasion of Canaan, they used God to explain everything that happened in the course of their history. "good" or "bad".

Hopefully that makes more sense.

Kparaga said...

SO basically, everything that happens is the will of God, even genocide. They believe God has a plan and is executing it through history. So if a child gets hit by a bus, it was Goddidit. Thats just how people thought back then and it wasn't exclusive to Jews. Using 21st century reasoning and moral standard to judge +4000BCE life is kinda unfair IMO

FTR I don't believe in any of this stuff. But I think when put in proper context a lot of it isn't as ridiculous as people try to make it sometimes.

lahlah said...

Azazel, I get your point. But as I must reiterate, Since God didn't write the bible, I am 100% sure there are a shit load of biases in that book. Imagine if the American founding fathers wrote the bible. A new species of animals fondly referred to as negroes would be ok, God may have conquered their land for them, e.t.c, or if hitler wrote the bible (ok that would be a hell of a read). Apology accepted but it's conditional sha.lol

lahlah said...

also most people who read the bible also think that it's ok to have child brides, and kpansh young teen boys *side eyeing that eddie long fellow* The bible epitomizes that "open book" phrase, it's open to way too many interpretations if you ask me

leggy said...

this life is about the survival of the fittest.
thats all i have to say.

Azazel said...

@2cute4u
So it was right to take the land because the previous owners had displeased God??
Oh so maybe it was right for the americans to take the land from the native americans. They might have displeased God also..
U do realise that the israelites took that land and also engaged in genocidal practices while taking it.

Leggy..
Maybe it is, maybe it is not lol.
I hope ur very fit because the only reason nobody slaps u and takes ur shit is because u are protected under the law.

Realist said...

with God on my side, who can be against me. Even morality or the law is no match for the awesome might of our Lord

2cute4u said...

In every war, there is always an accepted loss Azazel and if, I repeat if as was with God's anger in the old testament it pleased Him to wipe out a race as a lesson to both the Israelites and all, then,it was worth it..
It might have been God who sanctioned the taking of land from the native Americans, because, if he didn't, it wouldn't have worked..
Just saying..

El-Divine said...

nna man, yall r just feeding eche's fire.
truth is...humans will always justify their actions by attributing its success to God.
and the Europeans DID claim that God gave them d land. Yu know abt what they called "Manifest Destiny" which is d blif dt all continental US from atlantic to pacific was theirs by God given right.

funny enuf, when the canaanites over ran israel they also said "our gods v given them into our hands." its just how we are.

Azazel said...

@ 2Cute4u

Refer to Eke Devine's comment.

nna man, yall r just feeding eche's fire.
truth is...humans will always justify their actions by attributing its success to God.
and the Europeans DID claim that God gave them d land. Yu know abt what they called "Manifest Destiny" which is d blif dt all continental US from atlantic to pacific was theirs by God given right.

funny enuf, when the canaanites over ran israel they also said "our gods v given them into our hands." its just how we are.

Using God as an excuse to kill ppl is unacceptable.
God's don't kill people, people with God's kill people

2cute4u said...

Tpical of you guys to turn it all upside down..
I'm sure I made my point..

Vanity said...

sigh honestly I cannot even argue with Christian people again. They assume that everything the bible says is good while for all they know the bible might be a sham but I digress.

Azazel said...

Forreal @ Vanity..
Funny how if the bible is not mentioned the actions of the israelites would be considered horrific, but when u mix God and bible with it, everybody suddenly loses control of their conscience. Smh

Naijalines said...

I love your blog. It's good to know that some people know what it means to 'use your head' - That a healthy debate on religion can happen in the Nigerian blogging community? Keep it up!

Tarzye said...

and here i step in... to answer that question. For EONS.. i mean literally EONS! nations have been fighting over land. Didn't Nigeria and Cameroon fight over the Bakassi??? Uganda and Kenya fought over an Island, China and Japan fought over Hongkong, The United Kingdom fought with countless countries over land, so people have been fighting over land.. as for your question, the Bible aside, God didn't authorise genocide, He authorised the Jews to take over that land, people were there, but incase you didn't notice, except in few case it was the countries that the Jews not the other way around. In fact the only time the Jews actually attacked another nation was when they attacked Jericho, every other time, they Jews just settled in land and got attacked by the SURROUNDING nations. Basically it's like God telling Obama "Barrack! I have destined you to lead the people of your nation (no name yet) to go and I will give you a land flowing with milk and honey." God wouldn't make them go through places where they would HAVE to kill other people, God took them on a path and if a nation was unfortunate to not allow them passage, they were annihilated.. PERIOD! But God didn't make the Israelites go out of their way to attack other nations. Check the maps.. what is the biggest Israel has ever been???? PS: i think i gbagauned here sha, Pardon me, but i replied this wen i was a lil busy..