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Monday, February 8, 2010

The Chemist



EDIT: The Truth Don Die family welcomes Mr Aradi as a new contributor to the blog. Mr Aradi's religious faith is 'Islam' so he is the first Muslim we've had on the blog. Mr Aradi is an incredibly smart human being even though I do not agree with his religious faith. But that is what we aim to do here at this blog, present all sides of every religion so people can become enlightened. 

Slower breaths… clammy feet… pounding headache… cool sweats… anxiety… night terrors… hysterical laughter… trembling… fear… elevation… falling… landing….

In a very conventional chemist shop. I was still not used to these transformations, even after all these years.
“Aspirin”, I said, walking up to the counter. “Bad headache.”
And then I noticed The Chemist, and I couldn’t help but chuckle. He’s a short Indian-looking guy with dark shades, wearing an overcoat and crunching dedicatedly on a tin of nuts. Not one of my finest figments.
“Not my fault”, he said as he handed me the aspirin and a glass of water. “At one point you tried to call me Nutty.”
I choked and then apologised sincerely.
“Drop them pearls”, I said. “I’m all ears.” I swear I didn’t notice his flabby ears. He wasn’t too pleased either, but he let it go.
“See these medicines?” he said, motioning across the room, “they are strange things. Let me tell you how they’re made. The chemicals are stored in a dark room at the back. No one’s sure how they’re made exactly, but we believe they spill to the floor and mix themselves up in exactly the same proportion and the same heating and pressure necessary. They then trickle into the empty boxes that await them at the other end of the room and seal themselves into these delightful packages.”
“No”, I said. We stared at each other for two full minutes before I realized I was supposed to present my own point of view. “A chemist or a pharmacist made and packaged them.”
“No they didn’t”, he said. “Just because they’re there you think they must have been made by this clever graduate of a medical school who owns a company and has employees in these laboratories with equipments for pressurising and mixing these ingredients in exactly the same proportion. You think they must have packaging departments and delivery trucks with a standard set of operations to provide you medicines? Wrong! Let me ask you, have you seen him?”
“Well… no, but..”
“Aha!” He smiled victoriously.
“Okay, let me ask you” I said, “How do you suppose the chemicals made it to your room at the back?”
“Easy”, he said, airily. “Do you agree with me that they were delivered there?”
“Yes…” I said, waiting for him to continue. The Chemist merely crunched on his nuts and stared at me. I was tempted to take a dig at his nuts, but I refrained. Not worth it, he’s clearly nuts.
“Who delivered them?”
“Don’t you see?” He said incredulously, mouth full of nuts, “It all starts with the Delivery!”
“Right” I said, nodding slowly. “And I’m sure the medicines were just delirious to hop off their containers.” My tone was sarcastic.
“Ah, now you get it! In fact, we call it The Delirium Delivery Theory. It’s just a random series of events that so happened to seem intelligently designed! Well, they’re not. Look at this chemist shop… plain fiasco! How can you have all these awful tasting liquids in one room?”
“Well, because if we ever fall ill…”
“Ah, illness!” The Chemist said accusingly, and pointed at me with a short finger I barely resisted breaking. “If your medicine making Chemist –slash- Pharmacist was so clever and rich, why didn’t he make a cure for falling ill? Why couldn’t I, for instance… just talking theoretically here… nothing personal… uhm, have a medicine that could make me bigger!”
I couldn’t help it, I laughed. “There are pills for those, dude! They give you this energy and enlarging…”
“You know what I mean!”
I tried to be serious and decided to take a sip of the water, but mid-sip he said “I mean, I have all these nuts, but…”
I toppled to the ground in tears of mirth. But then I remembered that my tears could drown buildings around here, and so I stopped. The Chemist wasn’t too pleased.
“Well…” I proposed, “Did you ask him? I heard that you could write to him and he would do his utmost to consider your request.”
“But there is no he!” he shouted irritably.
I looked around me for a tin labelled ‘Chill Pill’, but then I sensed wariness.
“Sorry man”, I said. “The way I thought this would go we would travel to Europe on a plane and argue about Hotel Managers and you would fly like Neo with that overcoat and all…”
He smiled at me. “Thank you, Aradi.”

I woke up with that headache, in a pool of sweat, but I was still chuckling about The Chemist’s wish.
“Well, just because I call him The Lord Pharmacist and others call him The Mighty Chemist doesn’t mean he didn’t give us those pills!” I said out loud.

73 comments:

Azazel said...

Ha I understood this bro, and I understood the subtle messsages u were trying to convey..
But question though, why do you assume that the 'chemist' is a male??
Is it not possible for the chemist/pharmacist to be a female?
Then moreover, look @ it this way..
If we can not know fasho whether the chemist is a male or a female. How then can u really without a doubt know that a chemist exists @ all??
Isn't there reasonable doubt in both your story and in the story the Indian guy gave?

Enoch said...

Who made the chemist?

Regress argument ... ad infinitum

If chemist is causeless, why not the pills? Or the back room?

Nice allegory btw.

Azazel said...

Lol yeah Enoch definitely a nice allegory..
Good question @ who made the chemist? Was the chemist there by himself all the time?

Myne Whitman said...

Interesting write-up, don't mind these your co-conspirators.

BLASPHEMY said...

Nice allegory, But am worried, since no one knows what happens in the dark room, how did the chemist come across this information "The chemicals are stored in a dark room at the back. No one’s sure how they’re made exactly, but we believe they spill to the floor and mix themselves up in exactly the same proportion and the same heating and pressure necessary. They then trickle into the empty boxes that await them at the other end of the room and seal themselves into these delightful packages.”
just asking hey !

The Messiah said...

Haha nice post.

The Chemist is definitely a euphemism to something religious. I like the story tho.

Lady X said...

I knew you wouldn't disappoint Aradi. Amazing write up as always. Probably the best I've read on this blog. But hey, that's just me.

Aradi said...

Thanks guys. The Chemist is actually the teacher here and he was trying to use irony to challenge me to think deeper about where my pills came from.

Blasphemy, his claims about the process the chemicals go through is actually a theory he presented to me. It's like when I see a computer program and I say 'Ah! The codes must have automatically assembled themselves to create this program!' Just a theory, the fact is that a programmer created it. The Chemist, or... Nutty, knew this of course, he was trying to illustrate a point.

Azazel, I'm not assuming that the chemist from the company is male, I just used the male term like people always did before this world adopted this politically correct thing where everyone has to say he/she. Are you implying that The Chemist in the shop could be right and the chemicals mixed themselves?

Enoch, I never said the chemist or the back room where causeless. In fact, we could keep regressing to the effects of these causes and we would end up at the same place; the Delirium Delivery Theory (or WWE style DDT) in the case of this story, or when time started with The Big Bang. I believe our encapsulation is time/space inhibits our ability to see beyond that... different people speculate, but I am with those that drift to the metaphysical angle.

I initially drafted a longer version that ends with me being convinced by The Chemist and proceeding to write a book about the experience titled "The Hotel Manager Delusion"

BLASPHEMY said...

Ah of course but i wonder why he should use such illustrations.

Azazel said...

Lol Aradi u seem to be evading the questions though..
It's not politically correctness to deduce that it is possible for a God to be female or male in characteristics is it?

@ I believe our encapsulation is time/space inhibits our ability to see beyond that... different people speculate, but I am with those that drift to the metaphysical angle.

Ah but the keyword there is 'believe'. Ur belief is not the same thing as 'knowledge'...
U might believe in the encapsulation is time/space.........
But do u know for certain? I think not

Aradi said...

Azazel, in Islam God is considered to be neither male nor female. Not even both, just neither. One of the ayat (signs) of Allah is the nature of his creation's duality. The Qur'an mentions duality in several places; Hot and Cold, Light and Darkness, Male and Female... If one of the dual properties of a creation is absent, those creations shall diminish into nothingness. The only exception here is God, he is Ahad (The One).

The people of the tribe of Muhammad worshipped goddesses before his message, the main ones being Al Lat and Al Uzzah, which they claim to concede with God on their behalf. They also believed God had daughters in the form of angels. Muhammad did away with those beliefs and destroyed the idols with his own hands. Allah questions the belief of a God with daughters the Qur'an, asking rhetorically if he preferred daughters over sons or if he, indeed, was incapable of having sons? Allah has neither, he is far above any human.

We use 'He' when referring to Allah because 'She' would imply a certain sex and 'It' is too derogatory.

Some call Him The Supreme Architect of the Universe (too wordy.. stick with God), some might even call Him the Force, we call him Allah. None implies a certain sex.

Aradi said...

Interesting, Azazel, that you propose a possible plane of existence for us humans that is without of space and time. Please provide me with your ideas, I would love to experience that form of living.

Blasphemy, it's a theory. Theories rarely present an untainted and pure version of a sequence of events, and The Chemist acknowledged it, and thus his use of 'We believe'. He was speaking in detail to expose the loopholes in his own theory.

Azazel said...

Exactly why is 'she' derogatory? Afterall if Allah identifies with no sex, surely it would not be offended if it was referred by any of the gender names..
And lest this seem like a petty argument, because I mean as has been noted in most of these religious books..
Why does it seem that most of the people who tend to get 'inspired by both allah and Jehovah are male ???
Is it not possible that if women had been the ones who had been inspired by Allah to write the koran or bible that they would have referred to allah as a 'she'??
And before u tell me that allah and Jehovah are the same thing lol, let me remind u that if they were the same thing in the minds of people who worshipped them. We would not be havin this conversaion

Aradi said...

I didn't say 'she' was derogatory, 'it' is. 'She' would imply that God is a certain sex. And yes, Allah and Jehovah are one and same in the minds of those that worshipped them. Different in the minds of those that corrupted Jehovah's message.

Azazel, all of the prophets in the Qur'an are male. And in Islam, although we believe there are several pious men, we revere four women as the pious; Khadeejah the first wife of the Prophet Muhammad, Asiya the wife of Pharoah (who raised Moses), Mary the mother of Jesus, and Fatima the daugher of Muhammad and the only one of his seven children that succeeded him (she dies six months after his death).

When I say pious I don't mean that other women are not pious, but that only these four are of the optimum level of piety in the same bracket of the other pious people.

Indeed Muhammad prophesied that there shall be more women in hell than men. He also said there are a lot of hypocritical men. This is not to say that women are inferior males, but as Allan and Barbara Pease noted in their book 'Why Men Don't Listen and Women Can't Read Maps', the fact that we're different does not mean we're unequal.

In Islam women are supposed to be serene, nurturing, wise and full of love. Therefore women are not involved in politics or business. Prophethood requires for public speaking, it's not an easy business. Muhammad, Jesus and the other prophets did not have a smooth ride. Muhammad was a noble youth in his community known by several as The Trustworthy (Al Amin) before Prophethood. When Muhammad started preaching he started with his family, and was slandered almost immediately by his uncle who loved him beforehand. He was slandered, beaten, starved, had thorns put on his path, had his loved ones tortured and was given a reputation as a mad man among his people. So much fall from grace. That is no environment for a woman, and indeed one of his female companions, Sumayya, was killed along with her entire family except for her son Yazid. She was the first person to die for Islam.

Muhammad called for respect for women endlessly and himself loved all his wives and daughters dearly. When some of his companions are martyred, Muhammad would take food to their wives and children. When Muhammad was at the presence of Barakah, the woman who raised him and remained by him all his life, he would remove the shawl and spread it for her to sit on, calling her Ummi (which means mother). Indeed, Muhammad said the road to paradise lies at the feet of the mother. A companion asked Muhammad who he has the most responsibility to, and Muhammad said 'The mother', he asked 'then who' and Muhammad replied 'the mother', 'then who?' 'the mother' 'then who?' 'and then the father.'

Women are also considered every bit as wise as men. When Muhammad first encountered the angel Gabriel and he revealed the first verses to him, he was in a cave doing his reflection. He ran home straight away to his wife, scared and saying 'cover me!' She used some tests to deem if the angel was a good or bad spirit, and assured Muhammad that he was a good man that encountered a good spirit that would not harm him. She took him to her Christian cousin, Waraqah bin Nawfal, who revealed to Muhammad that that was the same angel that had come to Jesus and Moses and that he was indeed the prophet about whom Jesus spoke.

Women are honoured and respected in this religion, and there differences to men are considered.

Aradi said...

You also talk about Muhammad as if he edited the Qur'an to his taste, or if Moses or the other prophets fabricated divine doctrines and philosophies.

Muhammad never said something based on desires or personal whims. Indeed, at times when presented with a matter, he would not give a direct reply until he received inspiration. An example of this is when himself and his companions were discussing the need for calling of the prayer. they couldn't reach an agreement at the time, but the same night several of the companions had an inspirational dream about the adhan we have today.

Prior to prophethood Muhammad was noted for telling the trutha nd keeping his trusts, after prophethood Muhammad never presented a personal opinion or take on issues. Every thing that comes from his mouth is from God, he has attained that level of elevation. He was so enlightened that everything he spoke was true and pure and Godly. That is the same with Jesus, and why even in the Qur'an Jesus was referred to as being supported by The Spirit. There is a verse that announces the coming of John who shall support the Word of God (that is, Jesus). They never write personal angles or desires or fantasies or whims.

They do not choose anything, they worship without question.

Interestingly, in certain verses Allah addresses himself as 'We'. That is an Arabic form of indicating respect and reverence, and also a possible indication of the angels performing the deeds that are the Will of God. It doesn't matter that God is addressed as a 'He'. He is not male or female and females have no reason to feel alienated as great women like Asiya, Mary, Khadeejah and Fatima are regarded very highly and serve as role models to them.

Aradi said...

Also, I notice the off-hand manner in which you refer to the writing of the Qur'an. There is a whole branch of study, Tajweed, regarding the recitation and pronounciation of the Qur'an alone, and also other studies like Tafsir when it comes to interpreting it. You are over-simplifying a very sohpisticated field of study.

As I have said, Muhammad himself could not read or write and forbid anyone from writing the Qur'an during his lifetime. He memorised it, taught by Gabriel until he perfected his pronunciations and recitation skills. His companions also memorised it at the time, including Zayd bin Thabit, who was the only one present when Muhammad was tested about the Qur'an by Gabriel for the last time. Muhammad recited the whole 114 chapters of the Qru'an that night. Zayd was later the head of the 6 man team commissioned to write down the Qur'an, and also a couple of years later he standardised it. All other copies, written in different Arabic dialects, were destroyed and one standard version - the version that Zayd heard Muhammad recite several times with accurate pronunciations and syntax.

Another concept about The Qur'an, one that is perhaps hard for non-Arabic speakers to understand, is the fact that it is the most Arabic of books and Muhammad is the most Arab of people. Allah uses words in the Qur'an the way words were never used before (as I have said before, Arabic words are mainly derived from a root word of three consonants; three consonants could spark a thousand words). there are certain verses in the Qur'an that only contain root words (like Alif Lam Mim- 'A' 'L' 'M') only Allah knows the meaning to those. I have also mentioned that the Arabs were (and possibly still are) the greatest linguists and word-smiths in the world. They speak the richest and most sophisticated language; several Arabs now cannot read and interpret the Qur'an. It's too rich! They have to have years of study. Muhammad has never written a letter in his life and yet none of these amazing poets could write anything that matches his Qur'an. Think Shakespeare failing to match someone that has never written an English word or have formal education and you are nearly close.

The Qur'an is regarded by Allah as his greatest miracle, even more miraculous than Moses' staff, Jesus raising the dead and Muhammad parting the moon (yes... parting the moon). Translations of the Qur'an are not even regarded to be the Qur'an, just an interpretation. It's interpretations are several and takes years of study. This is why I have urged you to read it yourself as the book would do far more justice to itself than I would.

This is also why we do not even compare the current bible to the Qur'an. We only compare the bible to the Prophetic Traditions, and seeing that the Traditions (hadith) go through rigorous filtration procedures and bibles have been written by Paul and also people of the modern day, the prophetic Traditions just about cut it.

Enoch said...

Don't sidestep the question. Who made your God? Whatever your answer, why isn't it applicable to our multiverse?

You believe your holy book without proof. I'm writing a better book with a more consistent version of God. Would you believe mine?

Aradi said...

Enoch, I wasn't trying to be evasive.

This world and everything in it are the effects of occurrences that allowed for the formation of life and the natural order of all the physical things it encompasses, placing Man as the being of will and rationale (not to be mistaken for 'rational') over all other living beings. These causes are from the Big Bang, in itself a phenomenon that is referenced in the Qur'an. Surely nothingness did not decide to have a rapid expansion just like that? Surely there must be a Divine Being that designed this world?

I am sorry if this comes out wrong, but I suspect you succumb to two flaws of reasoning. First, the application of human characteristics to a Being that is far above the imperfections of the beings which he creates. "Kun fa ya kuun" says the Qur'an; Allah says 'Be' and it is. God has no beginning and no end.

Surat'al Ikhlas (Chapter of Sincerity) from the Qur'an sums this up accurately. I shall present a transliteration of the Arabic;

Bismillahi Rahmanir Rahim.

Qul huwal lahu Ahad.
Allah'ul-Samad.
Lam yalid, wa lam yulad.
Wa lam yakunlahu kufuwan Ahad.

(In the name of Allah, The Beneficient, The Merciful.)

Say: Allah is One.
Allah, The Most High.
He be-gets not and nor was He begotten.
And there is none but unto Him.

These verses, so succinct and accurate, describe Allah's nature.

The second mistake you are making is one that several men have made in the past and will continue to make; the assumption that Man is self-sufficient. Allah has said that Man, in his very nature is weak. Man is wont to transgress. And Man is prone to dispute. Some shall be guided, and will recognise the ayat (verses, prrof, signs...) all around them. for Allah has said if the oceans and the waters shall all turn to ink, they shall be unable to enumerate his ayat. Some have a blind-fold, and among them Allah shall guide whomsoever he wills.

In this day and age that we give Barrack Obama a peace prize and universal acclaim and we take several fallible people as heroes, it is amazing that truly remarkable people who brought light amidst the darkest of periods are regarded as liars and fabricators.

Go ahead, Enoch. Write your own verses about Al Rabb (The Lord), Al Khaliq (The Creator), Al Baari (The Shaper (out of nought)) and Al Musawwir (The Fashioner), and we shall see if they are indeed like those of the false prophet, who, upon hearing that Muhammad had been revealed surat'al Fil, The Chapter of the Elephant, also claimed to have been revealed a chapter, proclaiming 'And the elephant has long tusks!'

If you feel you're up for it, Enoch, go for it. My advice would be to actually read about that which you are disputing, I can provide you with links.

EDJ said...

I completely agree with Aradi's last comment. That has always been my problem with the religion disbelievers on this blog.

This need that Enoch, Azazel, and co. have of assigning human values and characteristics to a being far far above us. I will never understood. Y'all will argue that those of us who choose not to toss out a book because of its discrepancies are "blind", "ignorant", "illogical", etc. Why are you so sure you are the ones who "understand"?

Applying human logic to God is like using the wrong key to try and open a door. That door is never going to open.

You guys always ask for proof as if this is a science lab or calculus class. That isn't how it works!

Enoch said...

@Aradi
I'm laughing so hard I might just have a bladder malfunction.

You are doing some sophisticated synchronized swimming in an ocean of flawed arguments but rather than catch a breath of reason, you accuse me("you suspect") of false reasoning, namely, anthropomorphizing a figment of your imagination?

Aradi, if, as you have clearly demonstrated, what you BELIEVE has no factual basis in objective reality, you'll do yourself good to direct your SUSPICIONS to the holes in your reasoning and certainly not at me.

"...Placing man over all other living beings?" Have you cataloged intelligent lifeforms in other galaxies? Or Adjacent universes?

"God has no beginning and no end." Where is your proof? Nonetheless, there is nothing special about having no beginning and no end. Even a simple Euclidean concept like a circle which can be ideated by a mortal mind has such qualities. What I find juvenile and self important is assuming -without proof- that a causeless being caused this universe for our benefit. Why do reject the possibility that our universe is part of a higher system of universes caused by nothing & enduring 4 ever?

I don't give a shit what Allah has said. Or more appropriately, I don't give shit what a bunch of men claim Allah has said. For all I know; they could have had overly excitable temporal lobes, a predilection for LSD or a need to control fools who believe their unique brand of bullshit. All three possibilities infinitely more likely than divine inspiration. Quoting the quran to me is akin to seeking elbow room in a straight jacket. Enough of the synchronized swimming please.

Why do you believe the quran? I wager it's because you were born into Islam, but lemme hear you lie about that. Why do you believe it?

Enoch said...

@EDJ

lol. What are you going on about?

Enoch said...

@EDJ
Me anthropomorphizing? You need more switcheroo lessons. lol.

SOLOMONSYDELLE said...

I liked..nice addition to the blog.

Azazel said...

So the women can't be prophets, they however can be pious??

Lol @ EDJ
I think ur comment is totally off point..
Can u not see that it is only through proof that one decides which religion is the one true religion?
U urself say that u agree with Aradi, but he's muslim and u are catholic..
It is obvious to anybody that one of those religions is wrong as sin and one is right. They cannot both be right, so tell me o wise one..
What test would be sufficient enough to prove that one religion is right and the other wrong?? Is it not if God himself came down and said, this is the religion I want all of u to follow = PROOF

Azazel said...

@ n Islam women are supposed to be serene, nurturing, wise and full of love. Therefore women are not involved in politics or business.

U are a smart fellow no doubt, tell me bro do u believe that women should not be involved in politics or business??

So Allah never even once mentioned how it was possible that two different sets of religious groups could misinteepret his will so badly? First of all there were the Jews, and then the christians and now finally the muslim..
Just as Enoch said, if he were to write a book and claim it was God inspired would u believe him ??

Aradi Mohammed was a man right? He was capable of mistakes, lying and hyperbole. So this ur statement @

Muhammad never said something based on desires or personal whims. Indeed, at times when presented with a matter, he would not give a direct reply until he received inspiration. An example of this is when himself and his companions were discussing the need for calling of the prayer. they couldn't reach an agreement at the time, but the same night several of the companions had an inspirational dream about the adhan we have today.

makes it seem like he was a perfect man. So he was a man who 'Never Ever' said things based on desire or whims? I highly doubt thaat.
All the things u have written, u have not one 'IOTA' of proof. For example, u claim

@ every thing that comes from his mouth is from God, he has attained that level of elevation. He was so enlightened that everything he spoke was true and pure and Godly.

Tell me Aradi how do u know that everything that came from his mouth was from God??? Did he tell his followers that he was speakin from God? Or did God actually confirm that everything he said was from him?? How do u verify the truth of Mohammed's claims? Because @ the end all these things seem like hearsay to me..

Moreover back to Enoch's good point again, if he were to write a book claimin that it was from GOD/ALLAH most of u would ask that he provide proof.. But then, when it comes to the bible/koran most of u throw the need for proof right out the window..

Because lets be honest here, the bible and the Koran contradict each other in some portions innit? So again that is why I say, one must be a lie and the other the truth.

EDJ said...

"What test would be sufficient enough to prove that one religion is right and the other wrong?"

Therein lies the problem. I do not believe there is a right and wrong religion. YOU are the one that needs that proof. I believe there is a right and wrong way to PRACTICE religion, but in the end no-one can truthfully tell another person that their religion is "right" or "wrong". Like I said, this isn't math class. There is no "correct answer".

@Enoch, I'm going on about your addiction to applying human logic to something that cannot be logically explained i.e. faith. What is so confusing about that?

If Enoch were to write a book claimin that it was from GOD/ALLAH most of u would ask that he provide proof.. But then, when it comes to the bible/koran most of u throw the need for proof right out the window..

The reason so many people would take the bible/Quran over Enoch's attempt at sarcasm (i.e. his book) is because the bible/Quran is older. Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc have been around for literally 1000+ years. All espousing the belief that a "supernatural" being created this world and everything in it. Regardless of whatever spin the different religions decide on, what other belief/theory has lasted that long without changing?

You say that between Islam and Christianity one must be a lie. Why can't both be correct? They are the same at the core, and humans have decided to add (or subtract) many elements to each one.

2cute4u said...

hmm, nice post.. welcome Aradi.. nice one.
www.askchacha4free.blogspot.com

Enoch said...

@EDJ
Faith can be logically explained. It is evidence-free belief. It is dumb and stupid and is the hot younger sister of insanity.

You don't believe there are right and wrong religions? Why aren't you Muslim? Or better, how would you like to join my Luciferian movement?

Any idea that demands that you sequester reason/logic does not deserve brain-time and should be SPRINTED away from because only logic can offer the best measure of an idea's accuracy.

Why don't you have faith that I'm God? Case in point.

Azazel said...

Lnao hahaha @ EDJ saying that there is no right or wrong religion. Really? Why aren't u muslim? More to thee point why are u not protestant? Please serious examination of ur comment reveals that the person who wrote it must not be very intelligent. Such crap, why are u not muslim then? Or why are u not a mormon ? No right or wrong religion m foot. Hiss

EDJ said...

@Enoch, aren't you always saying that you are "humble"? Yet you make the statement that faith "is dumb and stupid and is the hot younger sister of insanity." Insinuating that billions of people are "dumb and stupid" while you are the logical one! If that isn't a sign of an enormous ego then what is?

To both of you, I am not muslim because I was born christian and have not had a need to research other religions. I am happy with being a Christian, and if at some point I decide to switch religions then I will do so and will not start judging Christianity as being wrong.

@Azazel What is unintelligent about what I said? That is my opinion. You don't have to agree with it and that doesn't mean it is not "intelligent". This is the bs that keeps happening here. You are supposedly open to having a discussion but the minute someone mentions something contradictory they are being "illogical".

So you think by me remaining a Christian I am automatically passing judgment on other religions? What kind of crazy a** conclusion is that? Do you think this is a race? Where everyone is trying to sign with the "rightest" religion team so they can win a gold medal? IF those are the kind of religious people you know, best tell them they are doing it all wrong! It is this same thinking that makes people jump from branch to branch of Christianity. the search for the "right" or "wrong". THERE IS NONE.

I am going to ignore your references to protestants and mormons because WE ARE ALL CHRISTIANS. You are going to make me write a blog post about the brand of idiocy that causes people to classify Catholics and Protestants as belonging to two separate religions.

I have told you all this before, but you seem to ignore it. It must be beneath your royal highnesses to entertain the idea that there are people out there who are JUST FINE with their ideals.

El-Divine said...

@enoch, you know how many complex systems combine to sustain life on earth and due to the absence of all these conditions simultaneuosly in othr glaxies makes the possiblity of getting anything beyond primitive life forms on other planets is very remote. so i think theres every reason to believe the bible/quaran that man is highest of life forms is true as far as we can tell.
@ azazel, indeed there are differencs between Quaran and the Bible but they are interpreative not really fundamental differences. And it doesnt mean that the God who inspired them was lying or that his prophets dint hear right. It only underscores our human weakness of experiencing or interpreting reality differently. The US consitution is one document and ppl draw super contrasting conclusions from it...does it mean the framers of the constitution dont know wt they wrote?
My main irk though is the constant demand for proof of God's existence. How u can subscribe to a philosophy that is enslaved to sensory perception is beyond me. According to Plato, our material world or what he calls "this world on becoming and passing away" is the shadow of tru reality and tru reality which he calls Universals exist outside of time and space and so people cannt hv sensory contact with it. So stop howling for proof, stop asking the man outside the dark cave to bring the light he claims to see inside for you to see it before u believe. Faith is not believe without evidence as you claim enoch. it is the belief that makes you take a step out of the cave so you can experience the light for yourself.

El-Divine said...

@ EDJ, dont be surprised by enoch's position. He is a luciferian and the first hallmark of luciferians is their arrogance. the only thing bigger than their arrogance is their materialism. They claim to be open-minded yet they assume that 1.5billion muslims and at least 2billion are ignorant and misguided. have you considered enoch that we all have thought carefully about the nature of things and come to the conlusion that what our holy books tell us are true? they say religion makes claims of being all-wise and others ignorant and then they turn around and do the same. Isnt that evidence that the problem is not religion but people all through history with more ego than sense?? Isnt their insistence on physical proof of God echo the insistence of the church that said Galileo was mad bcos of course what the eyes tell us is that the sun orbits the earth? Being so smart I though they must have understood that all of reality is not what the senses tell us. How can people claim to be progressive and yet be so unyielding and contemptous of the intelligence of billions of ppl who believe that God is true and real? Like i said before, a philosophy that insists on sensory validation of al concepts is beyond me.

Azazel said...

Lmao @ et you make the statement that faith "is dumb and stupid and is the hot younger sister of insanity." Insinuating that billions of people are "dumb and stupid" while you are the logical one! If that isn't a sign of an enormous ego then what is?

Gosh this ur statements are givin me serious headache...
EDJ sometimes the MAJORITY means that all the fools are on the same side. Doesn't mean that all the fools are right.. Anybody can have faith, it does not mean that their faith is based on TRUTH.

Oh please stop deceivin urself, protestants are friggin diffrent from Catholics..
One division broke away from the other and others have broken away from Protestanism. Are u kidding me? How many protestants have I seen lampooning the catholic religion? And how many catholics have I seen lampoonin the protestant religion? U must be smoking if u think that the two religions see 'eye to eye'. That would be a lie

@ I have told you all this before, but you seem to ignore it. It must be beneath your royal highnesses to entertain the idea that there are people out there who are JUST FINE with their ideals

So beccause they are fine with their ideals their ideals should be above criticism? EDJ u shock me everytime u type, please what is your point exactly???
That Faith is above criticism hence it is above logic/reason hence anybody that does not have faith is stupid?

Azazel said...

El Divine
I would never argue that
all the books of the bible are lies..
Some are true, some are outright lies upon examination..
And if u think that 1.5 billion/2.5 billion have made the decision that all their holy books are TRUE!!! Then I must say all those people are stupid as fuck..
Moreover how can theyy be two truths?? So one book the Koran says something else and the other book says something else and we are suppose to believe that they are both true??? Excuse me if I prefer to think with my brain instead of with my anus as most of you 'Faithful Religious people' are won't to do. Hiss shit is disgusting.

Enoch said...

@EDJ

Deep down inside me there's a humble dude just dying to get out. Psyche! Of course I'm humble.

In the 90s Deeper lifers/assemblies of Goders :) (can't remember which) refused medical treatment because they had faith they'll be healed. Is that dumb? Sometime in the 70s in Guyana, several hundred people had faith that their leader was God incarnate and was leading them to heaven via poisoning themselves, is that stupid? John Nash, the mathematician/economist was diagnosed schizophrenic for having conversations with people no one could see. How is that different from prayer? is that insane?

Ignoring a dumb thing like refusing meds in the name of faith is not humility. Approving of a stupid thing like ingesting poison because another man told you it's the faithful thing to do is not humble. Faith demands a suspension of reason, you are just lucky that you don't have faith in ideas that are deleterious to your health. I would not apologize for the truth.

I'll take all this back if you do me one thing. When next you are at your office, say a loud prayer in front of your coworkers and if they don't give you insane looks, I'll take this all back.



@El-divine

So I say I'm Luciferian and you bought it? Why didn't you fall for the same when I praised BAAL? Or when I claimed God spoke to me about the Eden fruit? That's the peril of faith right there. It conditions you so. You need to tweak your sarcasm radar.

Sensory validation? What are you talking about? Abeg keep whatever philosophy you are referring to bottled up in your head. Let it not get out before you start another runaway religion.

As for lifeforms in other planets, it'll be a probabilistic misnomer if there are no lifeforms in the roughly 40 trillion billion planets in our universe. Not to mention the possibility of other universes. That's the beauty of reason, I'm willing to concede that we might be alone but you faithful folks know all the answers already from your magic book.

Lastly, telling the truth has nothing to do with arrogance.

EDJ said...

"it does not mean that their faith is based on TRUTH."

This is your opinion which you are entitled to. Also, my comment to Enoch was meant to point out the madness in saying that he is "humble" when he strongly believes his intelligence surpasses that of billions of people. I never mentioned you, so excuse you.

"U must be smoking if u think that the two religions..."

I am going to write that blog post now because you are definitely asking for it. WHO taught you that protestants and catholics belong to two different religions? Enoch, isn't this where you jump in and point out the terrible logic of your friend's comments? Or does your self-congratulatory atheist love fest not extend that far?

I never said that the faith was above criticism. I said that people are fine with their religions and this seems to be something that seriously disturbs the two of you. You can criticize Christianity but to say that the followers are "dumb" and "stupid" because they are OKAY with it? That is going too far.

Enoch said...

@Azazel

lmafaooooooo You crack me up.

Enoch said...

@EDJ

There you go again talking about intelligence and attributing fictitious thoughts to Enoch.

PLEASE, I AM A SIMPLETON!!!! I LIKE IT LIKE THAT!!! I DON'T CARE WHAT ANYONE ELSE THINKS!!!

El-Divine said...

YOU SEE THE SAME REASONING YOU GIVE AND THEN IMPLY THAT I AND OTHER RELIGIOUS PPL THINK FROM THEIR ANUS. FIRST U ASSUME THAT IF THE BIBLE IS TRU THEN THE KORAN HAS TO BE FALSE AND VICE VERSA.THATS A FALSE DILENMA HAVE U CONSIDERED THAT THEY MAY GIVE DIFFERENT DIMENSIONS OF THE SAME TRUTH?
AND PLS, DO NOT MAKE THE ACCUSATION DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY THAT I AM NOT BEING RATIONAL BECUASE I DO NOT CONFORM TO UR IDEA OF RATIONAL THINKING. I THINK EVERY INCH AS CRITICALLY AND RATIONALLY AS YOU DO SO DONT B PISSED THAT WE COME TO DIFFERENT CONCLUSIONS. ITS JUST THE WAY WE ARE. DIFFERENT.

Azazel said...

@ el divine
two versions of truth? That are completely diff from each other? What u just said wud not hold up in a courtroom moreless in a spiritual sense. So two groups of people witnessed something and they both have two diff versions of truth. Lol @ Edj. So protestants and Catholics are both Christians, next thing u know u'll claim christianity and Islam are one religion.
I would never claim that all religious ppl are stupid but am Enoch said, those ppl in the Jim Jones debacle were stupid and same goes for the stupid deeper life Christians. Divine healing my foot.

Azazel said...

Edj
Nazi's were fine in believing that their need to exterminate all Jews were right/fine. Maybe we should have left them to their 'fine beliefs'. Edj see If u ever see me propagate a stupid and useless belief call me out immediately. Because how else can I be expected to grow if I go throughout life thinking am above criticism. If there is no will to be criticized there is no will to change .

Anonymous said...

@azazel, why so immature in ur arguements? What is the essence of the name calling? Is this an attribute of ur non belief? A characteristic even? Why so much hate geared toward people and their faith and religion? Why rubbish it with such boldness? Again, why do you and Enoch focus on the negative part of religion and never the positive? Are you thinking from ur anus when you choose to believe science? Has science explained to you how we became? It has only attempted in explaining the our existence in so far as the way we exist as opossed to the origins of our being. Can science make man or create sperm? It has only progressed upon what already exists, it never created anything. I have said it before that once science and man can replicate earth in all it's splendour, create the sun and moon and skies and water and everything that exists naturally, then I will believe in their theories. Nothing just happens, it is obvious that someone put great thought into our creation. Now both you and Enoch should get over your self importance as you know nothing, stop using weak examples to back up ur arguements - there are people who are brainwashed to think faith is about challenging GOd, the bible never stated that you should not take drugs when Ill, some people have a warped idea on faith, just as enochs warped idea that we came from nothing and will continue to evolve to infinity and beyond with no end or beginning in sight, wheras even our simple existence proves otherwise, we all know we are born and we die, but Enoch will have us belive that in another 40 billion years or so humans will cease to exist and We would have evolved into dinosaurs or monkeys and then human again... And round and round it all goes with no end or beginning in sight... And I suppose you have concrete proof of this eh? Fortune tellers! God bless ENoch and AZazel.

Aradi said...

Enoch, I'll just say this for the record; I don't believe in your perceived logic. EDJ and El-Divine don't come across to me one bit as people of ignorance. The fact that El-Divine mentions one of my favourite inventors, philosopher and astronomer Galileo also endears me to his opinion. I am amazed how yourself and Azazel cannot believe in a universal truth and different approaches to that truth, like they proposed. That is a very fathomable concept. In fact, our limited perception does not show us all there is in the world, we are only peeping through a keyhole.

You claim you're a man of logic, Enoch (one that would sooner believe in Klingons, Jedi and Decepticons than a Divine Intelligent Being), and I sense that my conversation from you has neared its ending following your claims that you don't even care what the holy book you dispute says (I refuse to read Hamlet but I know it's a horrible play! And I'm not going to read it, I know it's horrible!), so my only request is this;

Say I had ten balls numbered one to ten like snooker balls wrapped up in a bag, what is the probability that by randomly selecting these balls I would get one to ten in the correct order?

I'm not sure if you've noticed, but this is trying to give you a context of the countless conditions that enabled life on this Earth in its diverse and wonderful forms and the probability of sentient beings in the solar system, perhaps, infinity and beyond?

There are differences myself and EDJ and El-Divine have, but I can already see the wisdom behind their general arguments. Even in the Qur'an, the Ahl'al-Kitab (People of the Book, i.e. Jews and Christians, Yahud wan Nasara) are said to be of higher status and closer to the truth than those of other faiths. That is because the messages of Jesus, Moses and Muhammad are One and same. What we believe in is that theirs has not been safeguarded like the Qur'an and Sunnah (Traditions) have, but this is a difference that I'm sure we could not bridge soon. I have read the bible myself and I know, myself, that in it there is the universal truth that EDJ and El-Divine speak of, just that it is diluted in concepts I cannot believe, like the divinity of Jesus.

Just for the record, Azazel, the figure of the 'fools; you provided are surely higher than 2.5 Billion?? Factor in the dead and peoples of past and ancient civilisations and take a guess. That's just one elementary thing in which your logic failed you. Also, rest assured that your fools includes people like Einstein, Newton and those several others that have helped establish ways of thinking in science and based the foundation of western philosophies and ways of thinking.

And please, please if you guys want to have a discourse, stick to the argument and refrain from the colourful language and comments like 'I'm laughing so hard at your ignorance!' I find your arguments even more ridiculous but I just proceed with the arguments. You cannot say that I have dodged any question so far, Azazel. Yourself, I have not even begun to question you.

And Enoch, please provide me with anything you write, heck, get Azazel to help you. Get some literature professor, friends, turn it into an event! When you get it done, we shall compare it to surat'al Ikhlas, the one I've provided above.

Aradi said...

Oh, and I think it was Azazel that mentioned people laughing at you when you pray out loud. First, religion is not about what others think of you! That is social conformity! Do you think as a Muslim in the UK I care for social conformity? (majority being -not- muslim and all..)

Secondly, I do indeed pray silently before exams (I pray for everyone in the lecture hall actually). Last month, the invigilator, clearly a Christian, noticed from my concentration that I was praying and she whispered to me "You will pass this paper, good luck!"

If you're afraid of what people might think of you... then it's all kinda hopeless, innit?

Enoch said...

@Anonymous
Hello. I'm missing you o.

Aristotle said something like "entertaining a thought without accepting it is a mark of an educated mind."

No idea should be immune to inspection. Even if there is a God, how can one distinguish between truth and falsehood/manipulation if he must take certain things by faith?

Suicide bombers take it by faith that killing themselves is the will of God and a righteous path to 70 virgins. Begs the question, when logical reflection is abandoned, how can one free himself from such dangerous ideas?

You say "some people have a warped idea on faith" but the truth is that those people think the same about your idea of faith and since both of you choose not to permit reason into such matters... How can the wrong party know he's being used? Both of you might as well be equally damned.

You betray science but it does not cry like your Jesus. You have lashed it but it remains unwounded. You crucify it but it will not die. It claims not to be the son of God but rather believes steadfastly that the only obstacle to anything --be it creating sperm, reigniting a star or spawning a universe-- is knowledge.

Science would persist in the good fight against nonbelievers until it has uncovered enough universal truth to proclaim "let there be light" and shine away the darkness of ignorance in the minds of men.

Jesus lied. Science is the way, the truth and the life.

Enoch said...

@Aradi
Galileo!
I'm saying that so that I can endear you to my opinion.

"I am amazed how yourself and Azazel cannot believe in a universal truth." universal truth adjudged so by faith? No thank you. You must be amazed pretty often.

If you believe in Klingons and decepticons that's your prerogative not mine. I don't have beliefs, I work with probability distributions. With roughly 10 to the power 21 stars, the odds are reasonable we are not alone. Call them Jedi if you want.

I have read the bible and I know the quran was written by men. No man has a direct line to a supernatural being and so such accounts are bullshit or fecal matter if you prefer.

You are asking me grade school maths? The probability of selecting 1 to 10 in that order is 1/10! where "!" means factorial. If you are mathematically challenged, it computes to 1/3628800. Whats your point?

That's a 1 in 3.6 million chance. With approximately 40 trillion billion planets, if the odds where 1/3628800 EASY to have extraterrestrial life on a planet, we would have over 40 billion billion planets teeming with life that's about 6 billion life bearing planets for every man woman and child on earth today. That would certainly mean that earth is one of about a third of a billion life bearing planets IN OUR OWN GALAXY.

I'm itching to conclude you know very little about the conditions for life and the maths behind the odds.

If you won't stop the synchronized swimming at least get a life jacket. And yes, that means I love the colorful rhetoric and it's going nowhere.


And you have not answered me. Why do you believe your quran?

Aradi said...

Right, I'm back for more.

Azazel, about Muhammad, yes I believe he is the perfect human being. And don't believe Muhammad's biographies have slipped under the radar, no; if you see the sheer volume of the books written about Muhammad's life (sira), his traditions (sunnah), his sayings (hadeeth) and the deep analysis of the different dimensions and aspects of his character, you would be amazed. And of course, sitting there like a baby with a spoon waiting for us to spoon-feed you all our knowledge you won't go far! Go read about history, read about the faiths, the other great people and their views on faith! Do you know that the great writer George Bernard Shaw named Muhammad number one in his list of 100 most influential men! Go out there and read! You won't find the truth by just sitting there waiting for it to come to you. The first verse that Allah revealed to Muhammad;

(In the name of Allah, the Beneficient the Merciful)

Read! In the name of your Lord.
Who has created man from the clot.
Read! for your Lord is the Most Gracious.
Who taught Man by the men.
He taught Man what he knew not.

Read about Muhammad, read about Jesus, read about Moses! Do you know, Enoch, that I always find your name interesting because the Prophet Enoch was said by Muhammad to be the first man ever to write with a pen? Go out there and read, please. And please, just maybe one day (and this is about the 100th time I've urged this), read the Qur'an. I have the links.

You also seem to have the idea that religion is the tool used by these great men to control fools. Do you know about Arabia pre-Islam? They were at the lowest a civilisation could go, we call it the period of Jahiliyya (Ignorance). Fathers buried daughters alive, women were disregarded, people would fight over nothing and kill one another, the strong oppressed the weak, and in the midst of all this, Muhammad was the pride of his tribe. He was nothing like that, pure, honest, trustworthy. People would come to him regarding arguments, people would give him their property to keep (even when they later forced him into exile, he did not leave them without arranging for someone to take care of and return the trust everyone had given him to keep). Have you any idea what life would have been like for them had Muhammad not come with his message? Total darkness!

Do you know they tried to use starvation on himself and his followers in order for them to relinquish their faith, but they stayed strong? Do you know his wife and uncle who raised him died during the three year starvation period? Do you know he sent his followers to Abyssinia (now Ethiopia) to the Christian Negus for their own safety and those whom he sent included his two daughters? If you want I could get you a text in which Ja'far bin Abi Talib, Muhammad's close cousin who has a very pleasant voice and was very eloquent in his Arabic when he spoke, described the situation of their state prior to Muhammad. Muhammad salvaged a people in a dark age! He stuck his neck out in the line!

Aradi said...

Same as Moses, who salvaged the Jews from their darkest period! Before you dismiss these men, read about them! Appreciate what they did! They did not sit in mansions and write whatever their imaginations fancy and give it to people to follow!

What have you done so far, Enoch? Who have you liberated? What is your reputation among the people? Would you wake up one morning and go to, say, City Center and start spreading a message? Because that's what Muhammad did! He would take advantage of social gatherings, events, even market-places and preach! He would be laughed at, abused, beating, at one stage when he was praying in front of his daughter, they came and put intestines and disgusting stuff on his back, his daughter brushed it all off him, weeping all the time.

Muhammad started his state with a very simple system based on love. He would take someone from his own tribe and pair him up with someone from another tribe as brothers in Islam. These men would do anything for their 'brothers' These were the same men that lived in a dark period prior to his arrival! Please, read about them!

Muhammad said 'My companions are like stars, whichever you follow among them you will not get lost.'

Have you read about Umar bin Al Khattab (The seperator of truth from lies, considered by muslims to be the greatest leader in the world- read anout him!), Ali bin Abi Talib, Aisha bin Abubakar, Abubakar As Siddiq (The Truthful), Khalid bin Walid (Sword of Allah, the astute war general), Uthman bin Affan, Abdar Rahman bin Awf... I could go on! They didn't seem like sheep to me, they were revolutionary! We believe in the Qur'an when Moses was revealed by God how great Muhammad's companions were, he wished he was among them, but for his own responsibility as a Prophet.

Please, read about something before you shoot it down in your mind. It does not say much for any of you as men of reason, logic or academics to speak about an issue you do not have knowledge of. When I do not have knowledge about something, I read! This is why I read the bibles for myself!

Read about the contributions of Imam Al Ghazzali the philosopher, Ibn Sinna (known in the west as Avicenna), Al Jaber (founder of Algorithms and Algebra, thus the name), Umar Al Khayyam, and the several other revolutionaries in the realms of science. These people influenced the fields of science greatly! They inspired the works of people like Copernicus and Sir Isaac Newton.

The world did not start in the late 20th century and there is more to it than what you see now. Read about the people of the times gone by and how the world was shaped to be what it was today. Did you know that centuries before Darwin, Islamic philosophers had their own theories of evolution that was entirely in synch with creation? Please, read about stuff that you do not have knowledge about rather than waiting to be spoon-fed by others who would lead you to believe what they want you to believe. Be free thinkers, embrace knowledge. Know where the current Mathematical numbers that we use came from and how they changed the way the western world used Maths, how the Islamic civilisation influenced masonry and other crafts. Read for yourself!

I'll close this by continuing from the first five verses of surat'al Alaq;

"No but indeed Man transgresses.
Because he sees himself as self-sufficient.
Indeed to your Lord is the return."

Aradi said...

Ah, Enoch. I assumed that by doing the Maths you would recognise the context which I was referring to. There are NOT ten conditions that are necessary for the existence of the Earth, there are very several. Just the atmosphere or gravity have several conditions that if they were to change by the slightest, would spell doom for all life of the planet. And then there are other conditions like the location of the sun and our axis and even the tilting of the earth to about 23.5 degrees. If these change, there would be no life.

I was trying to make you realize that if there were ten random conditions that would enable life on this planet, millions of permutations would have to be made to ensure the existence of life. Now factor in ALL the conditions necessary for the existence of life! do you see now? Just adding a couple of zeros to our initial number '10' completely skews your mathematics, and thus, reasoning.

Not only does this diminish the probablility of intelligent life outside earth (we must add a few extra zeros for INTELLIGENT life forms of WILL), but it also makes us appreciate that the Earth is a creation of Intelligent and Intricate design.

Go ahead and say I'm not being logical. You provided the Maths yourself.

Foot? Check!
Shotgun? Check!

Now go!

Aradi said...

Regarding the first five verses, I inadvertently included an error. The fourth verse is indeed;

"Who has taught Man with the Pen."

Enoch said...

@Aradi
Alas my itch was not unfounded. I'm conflicted between laughter and pity. I think I'll settle for pitiful laughter.

Have you read any studies related to the possibility of extraterrestrial life? Do you know that peer reviewed articles converge on the concensus that the odds are good for extraterrestrial life in our universe?

Do you know that mainstream scientists conclude that our unicellular ancestors seeded the earth after hitching a ride on meteorites?

Do you realize we are carbon based lifeforms? Do you understand that planets that cannot support carbon based lifeforms could support other forms of life?

You think NASA built SETI to search for Muhammad?

And we have not even considered M-theory.

Making an argument against life in the cosmos is a lost argument. 10 seconds worth of research would tell you that much. You'll better yourself by being amazed by such and not my rejection of your "universal truths" men pulled out of their asses and wrote down in your magic book. Close the ass-book. Open textbooks.

Checking your foot and your shotgun? Which foot did you shoot? Hope it was your right.

While you are limping and CHECKING stuff. Check your brain is still in your cranium. I don't want you writing more brainless stuff.

It's past my bed time. Up your game. Don't want to wake up to more doodle.

I'm having fun. :)

Aradi said...

Enoch, you and I have come to the end of our discussion, because it is not a discussion, this. You arrogance far outweighs the depth of your knowledge, and as for wisdom, well... that is an alien concept. (All attempts at multiple pun intended, please tell me multiple entendres are a figment of my imagination next).

The motivation behind your argument are not the ones someone would wish for in an intellectual set-up, and your refusal to read about the subject matter baffles me. In your last post you choose to ignore the sheer bulk of the points I was making and picked up on what you wanted to see. You are a wind-up merchant and a megalomaniac; a new species prevalent in internet forums.

You would lead us to believe that the existence of life outside of earth is a widely accepted given. And even if it is, the foundations of your argument hinge overwhelmingly on a single, unproven statement. All that, and I have even not mentioned the fact that you tried to use the probability of ten events occuring in sequential order to prove the existence of extra-terrestrial life-forms. That smacks of desperation, considering the fact that you have even deviated from the argument and have formed a basis in your mind that Existence of Extra-Terrestrial Beings= Non Existence of a Divine Being.

I have learned two things from this though; the futility of my efforts at discussion with you and the direction of you at me, the SETI research. I shall do my research about it, sounds like quite an effort.

I am one for discussions, not petty arguments, wind ups, or blatant insults and name-callings. I do not attempt to camouflage the real substance or weight of my arguments behind rhetoric or selective myopia. Continuing this argument is akin to trying to pump some air into a punctured tube.

I have other directions in which I can direct my efforts. And unless you are willing to revise the very nature of your approach at meaningful discourse, then I think we are done here.

The Messiah said...

AHHHHH!!!! I just had to jump in. You guys are having too much fun, and I need a piece of it too.

Aradi, I thot we went through this before. Your statement that "the messages of Jesus, Moses and Muhammad are One and same," is as fallacious as saying iced water and oil have have the same characteristics. Maybe Moses and Muhammad, but Jesus? Jesus's overall message was that He is the "way, truth and life, no one cometh through the Father except through me" (John 14:6), Moses was far from that message. Moses was the law-deliverer, the one delivered the ten commandments and more, and Jesus was the Saviour, who only gave two commandments and asked that people accept Him into their hearts. Tell me how their message is One? And was Muhammad's message that Jesus was the way, truth and life? I guess not. The funny thing about you Aradi, is that this isn't the first time you got your facts wrong. So please, check your arguments for any errors before posting.

And what's this about all religions being the same? If they are why don't they do something they've never done in history. Unite. Truth is that wouldn't happen, because they're different. A typical muslim wouldn't submit his/her life to Jesus, because his/her religion is different from Xtianity, yet you guys make false arguments claiming they are. That's like saying Yoruba language and Igbo language is the same thing. ?????

My whole take on this is, it's fine to believe anything you want to, just don't be fanatic about it. Especially if you believe a lie.

Azazel said...

@ Anonymous...
U can like not to assume on what I believe and what I don't believe..
Thank u ...

I will be back to give my full comment because this ish is to long..

Aradi said...

Messiah, your claims that I have got my facts wrong are based solely on account of your getting your facts from the bible and me getting my facts from the Qur'an. The story of Jesus is accounted in the Qur'an, and Surat'al Maryam (The Chapter of Mary-http://www.quran.com/19) recounts the story of Zechariah, John, Mary and Jesus. You keep claiming it is a matter of getting my facts wrong, I claim it is a matter of where you gets your facts from.

You already know my views about the safeguard of the purity of the bible; the bible being rewritten by men of recent times whereas the Qur'an being a standardised book safeguarded carefully by the people; every letter, every punctuation and the same pronunciation.

And although Muslims respect and revere Jesus, we would not submit to him. We only submit to Allah and no human. Some jews had attributed divinity to Ezra, but we believe he is only a prophet and do not attribute divinity or submit to anyone.

Another thing I might say that you would refer to as deviation of facts is that Jesus is believed by Muslims to still be alive. We believe he was never crucified but another got crucified in his place. We believe he will return and defeat the Antichrist, destroy all the tainted scriptures and lead the new civilisation based on the teachings of the Qur'an before his death, this all happening near the coming of the Apocalypse.

I understand your views about fanaticism, Messiah, and no one hates religious fanatics more than I do, for they taint us all in a bad light (do you know my father and elders would not even allow me to grow a beard and warn me incessantly about my religion so that others do not judge me as a religious fanatic?). For my views on Islamic Fanaticism you might want to read this piece I wrote; http://yusufobul.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!77F5F8656A6A8D80!208.entry

Your statements about Moses being the law-bearer are 100% accurate. His story is the most detailed in the Qur'an and we regard him as a just, wise leader that seperated right from wrong. I was pleasantly surprised to read that he is regarded similarly in other texts

Azazel said...

LOl @ Aradi...
So both the koran and the Bible speak the truth yet u do not believe in the divinity of Jesus??
Mehn I am startin to get serious headache by the type of argument Aradi, EDJ and El divine are making..
Please are the three of u saying that both teh koran and the bible contain universal truths? Even though there are certain parts in which they are glaring CONTRADICTIONS???

I never said anything about people laughing @ u when u pray Aradi lol, I do not know of what you speak off.

Aradi please correct me if I am wrong, but did not the prophet and his followers have a tendency to convert people of diff religions by force into their Islam? I read that they use to wars etc and invade other kingdoms and then mandate that the peoples of those state convert to Islam. Please if I am wrong tell me, and I will stand corrected. But if I am right, if they really had the 'truth' why spread it through violence and fear??

Azazel said...

Messiah u got it right there @ especially if they believe in a lie..
See me see trouble @ the kind of things I've read today, people claiming that Islam and Christianity speak the same truth.... Really?
Serious fallacy, i guess that Mohammed preached that one must go to heaven to see allah if one passed through Jesus Christ..
Same Message ko.

Lol @ Jesus still being alived, so he was not crucified..
Like seriously though, I really need to get my hands on a Koran and read it so I can come discuss it with u aradi.

Azazel said...

So maybe there are to 'JESUSes'??
I mean seeing as neither religion can be right or wrong, it is really hard for me to see Jesus defeating the anti christ while holding two holy books in his hand. Rofl

Anonymous said...

unaa don read too much and u na don chop belle full.i always read ur posts and comments but dont have the level of understanding and comprehension to reply.

Aradi said...

lol, Azazel I admire your overtly humble approach at that question and I must have to say that that information is false. The Qur'an says "There is no compulsion in religion." I hope you agree with me when I say that every civilisation had a state, and the need for a state is inherent in our human nature. Muhammad said "If three of you embark on a journey, appoint one as leader." Such is the need for organisation.

Muhammad and his companions would give two options to non-Muslims living in Muslim states; to convert or to pay the jizya tax. The jizya is imposed on non-Muslims for living in an Islamic state and deriving benefits like security, protection, and other basic rights and benefits. Muhammad never used force, and once when he banished a Jewish tribe that he had initially allowed to remain in the Islamic capital, he did so because they conspired with four other tribes to join forces and wage war on Muslims together. Muhammad banished them for their betrayal of trust.

As for wars, Muslims fought Jihad when protecting themselves against enemies, most especially the Quraysh tribe of Muhammad, which exiled him. The Quraysh would not even allow them to perform pilgrimage to the Ka'bah (House of God built by Abraham and Ishmae'l and completed by Muhammad). They had even at one point drawn up a treaty over this but the Quraysh violated it.

The Islamic Civilisation had conquests, as does every powerful state. Some of these were bloodless - people surrendered when they faced the sheer might of the Islamic forces. Some even joined the state on will (Muhammad had writen letters to four powerful rulers at the time- three of them, including the Heracluis of Rome gave Muhammad their alliance, the fourth was Chosroes II of Persua, who tore up the letter. He was killed and succeeded by his own son who adopted Islam in his state). There was war and violence, but whenever the area was won, the same two choices were given. The Islamic states ranged from North Africa to Spain to the far East in India.

Political strength is essential to any mighty civilisation. Several of our greatest scholars, scientists and philosophers were Persian while several architectural, poetic and social advancements were attained in Andalusia (Spain). The Ottoman Empire of Turkey also made several developments regarding philosophy in the first three generations and their military power was also great.

Indeed you would find that when the church finally assumed political control of the Latin states and the Crusades were waged, there was much more bloodshed and killing, especially in the quest to reclaim Jerusalem from the Muslims. Don't just take my word on it, refer to it yourself.

Likewise, when King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella reclaimed Spain from the Muslims, Muslims were forced to convert to Christianity or be killed - and several did. Several others were killed. Sad, but true story. Also, very sadly, a huge amount of scientific, philosophical and astronomical amount of their works (the Muslims gathered knowledge from all around the world at the time and based their works around them and on Qur'anic revelation) were destroyed in the sea, so much that the sea was black because of the ink; that's where the origin of the name Black Sea came from.

And that was the beginning of the dawn of the Islamic Civilisation. Students of Islamic History and Civilisation encounter situations where books refer them to other books that are not there. Typical tale of an empire.

Aradi said...

You still misunderstand me when I say the message of Jesus and Muhammad is the same. The original message is the same, but we believe there has been tampering over history about the message of Jesus. I have mentioned Constantine's Council in another post (and the inclusion of pagan beliefs into the pure religion). Take for example Christmas, which has very pagan and heretic origins from the date to the Christmas tree. This is why we don't regard the bible as authentic any more.

It is not far-fetched to say that the bible still retains some of its truths though, thus, we believe, the stark similarities to Islam at certain points.

I have mentioned the story of Ja'far bin Abi Talib, cousin of the Prophet Muhammad, and the Christian Negus of Abyssinia. When Ja'far gave him a moving speech and recited the first versed of The Chapter of Mary from the Qur'an the Negus was moved to tears. "The message of Jesus and Muhammad are from the same source!" he proclaimed.

I have also mentioned Waraqah bin Nawfal, the Christian Monk who was the first to let Muhammad know that the Angel Gabriel was the same that revealed to Jesus and that Muhammad was the messenger Jesus prophecied (Jesus actually refered to him as Ahmad, both Muhammad and Ahmad mean "The Praise Worthy"). Waraqah was indeed one of a group on men that were more enlightened than the rest before the prophet hood of Muhammad and travelled around the world in search of religion. He settled for Christianity.

There is another account of a Christian Monk who observed the behaviour of the clouds on the younger, businessman Muhammad at the time Muhammad was a merchant. the clouds shaded him wherever he went. He told Muhammad's companion on the business trip that he was with a special person.

Before the Islamic state was strong, the Romans and the Persians fought a war and the Romans won. Muhammad and his companions celebrated this, as they realised that The Truth is getting stronger as the Christian Romans were closer to the Truth than the pagan Persians.

The differences, we believe, are man-made errors and tampering with the authenticity of the bible. I have already mentioned that Muslims go through so many lengths to ensure the purity of the Qur'an and there are countless people around the world that have it memorised in its exact form.

Enoch said...

@Aradi

"Megalomaniac." YAY for you! You can handle 5 syllable words.

I thought I told you in clear terms that I have no regard for Muhammad and related quran stories? I'm not going to have arguments about God told Muhammad to say this and Muhammad said that and Muhammad has no asshole and the clouds showed Muhammad was special like this or that. I have no interest in anything that is not demonstrably true. I might as well argue about Gandalf and Frodo.

I am amused that you consider such stories as 'knowledge' worthy to be paraded rather than parodied. If my ignoring all that quranic stuff gives you a seizure then have one.

All I wanted you to do is to tell me why you believe the "God inspired me" meme. Clearly, you have no reasons. Hiding behind all sorts of stories would not deceive anyone.

Many men have sacrificed all sorts for others without bringing "God told me" into the equation and once they do so and proceed to write it down, any such book is an ass-book as far am concerned. It is akin to pulling out nice fiction from the ass.

Who made the connection between ETs and the divine? YOU said "we were placed above all living beings..." A statement I took as a testament to the rigors of the workings of your faith and when i put it to task, just as I suspected, it could not pass the smell test.

I challenged your baseless assertion as to the superiority of humans and you surprised yourself by exposing not two but ten balls. The odds of picking ten in a specific order was supposed to signal at the sheer impossibility of extraterrestrial life. Why such trivial calculations drains the Muhammad in you, I know not. I would not apologize for thinking that such an act is indicative of a lack of intellectual depth on the subject and certainly would not apologize because it provoked pity and laughter in me.

I pointed you to SETI, a clear expression of the judgment of the scientific community on the the issue of ETs and what do I get in return? "Your arrogance far outweighs the depth of your knowledge." It would do you good to keep away from measuring the depths of anyone's knowledge especially because you seem to have an inexplicably exaggerated opinion of your knowledge which is based entirely on your magic ass-book(is this what you refer to as name calling? I won't apologize for thinking anyone that writes down conversations with God pulled it out of his ass). Not to mention, your probability-phobia.

Of course the discussion is over between us. You have NO REAL KNOWLEDGE to offer. What "God told Muhammad" might be priceless knowledge to you but I think it's ass-book material. Can't corrupt myself with such. I am glad to be a megalomaniac with a head like a "punctured tube." I'll rather it stays deflated than filled with your massive intellectual knowledge of what the quran tells you. If you must be upset that you've dedicated your life to the mastery of ass-books take it out on Muhammad and his divinely fine-tuned ears, not moi.

Enoch said...

@Aradi
Nawao. Sooooo sensitive?

EDJ said...

"Megalomaniac." YAY for you! You can handle 5 syllable words."

@Enoch this is a joke right? Didn't you use the word "anthropomorphizing" multiple times in your comments? Or am I correct in assuming that you are the only who is allowed to needlessly bring SAT words into NORMAL conversation? Rubbish.

Also about Jim Jones, he used those people. That doesn't mean there is something inherently wrong with Christianity. Religion is powerful, and it can be used for the wrong thing, that doesn't make it "wrong". As far as people turning down medical care for religion sake, yes that is silly, but once again that doesn't make religion silly.
No-one is asking you to NOT point out examples of religion gone wrong, but these are EXAMPLES. There if plenty of positive that comes out of it, and you both completely ignore this all the time in favor of bad examples.

@Azazel, what did religion have to do with the Nazis killing people? I am talking about religious beliefs. Also when you said:

"Edj see If u ever see me propagate a stupid and useless belief call me out immediately."

I did call you out for saying Catholics and Protestants aren't the same religion...your response? To say that I am "deceiving" myself.

"That's like saying Yoruba language and Igbo language is the same thing."

@The Messiah, Yoruba and Igbo are not the same but they are both Nigerian languages. Islam and Christianity are not the same, but they both share the belief that a supreme being created all of us. Is there something wrong with making that claim? You operate under this assumption that in order to prove they share similarities one religion has to "submit" to another. Why can't both co-exist? You think that because ONE christian dislikes ONE muslim therefore both religions are useless? Or because Israel and Palestine argue therefore Judaism and Islam are pointless?

All religions share similarities, and they are all striving for the same thing, to better lives. Is there something wrong with this? There are glaring contradictions in holy books because human beings remember things differently, write differently, and think differently. Two people can attend the same event and have two different stories. That doesn't mean they weren't at the same place at the same time. Both are true, both share similarities, but OF COURSE THERE ARE DIFFERENCES.

Enoch said...

@EDJ

Haba. What's your beef with little humble me? I was happy for Aradi and his prowess with 5 syllable words and you turn what was otherwise a joyous moment for him and myself into one of needless scorn.

You MISS my point about faith. Faith demands that you accept ideas without question. A SUSPENSION of reason. How would someone faithful to an idea KNOW that she is being used if by its very definition, faith denies her the ONLY INSTRUMENT that can make that determination?

Just as you don't need proof that Mary the mother of God intercedes for you,RADICAL ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISTS don't need proof of the 70 virgins awaiting them in heaven after blowing themselves up. You frown at them for having the wrong faith/being used. They frown at you for having the wrong faith/being used. I frown at both of you for throwing away the only thing that can help you discern.

I don't get a kick out of calling a thing stupid just for the fuck of it. But the mind is like a boxing ring where ideas battle. Reason and logic are your left and right arms. Faith is like stepping into that ring with handcuffs. I don't need SAT vocab to tell that's STUPID.

"Polymath Autodidact." Sorry about that. No point there. Just wanted to use my exclusive needless SAT words privilege you bestowed on me.

EDJ, don't take this blogging thing too seriously o. I don't o.

Azazel said...

Those people lived in those states before the Islamic forces conquered them right???
So @ he jizya is imposed on non-Muslims for living in an Islamic state and deriving benefits like security, protection, and other basic rights and benefits. Muhammad never used force

Did the muslims pay the jizya also? Or was it only the non muslims?? and am sure u know where am going with this question, why ask non muslims to pay for a fac simply because they do not want to convert to Islam??
Aradi u very well know that there were cases in which people were forced to convert, don't act like it was all sunny and rosy.. Human beings are never sunny and rosy and u know that...
Moreover Aradi was Mohammed a 'perfect' man?

Azazel said...

@ The original message is the same, but we believe there has been tampering over history about the message of Jesus. I have mentioned Constantine's Council in another post (and the inclusion of pagan beliefs into the pure religion). Take for example Christmas, which has very pagan and heretic origins from the date to the Christmas tree. This is why we don't regard the bible as authentic any more

This had me cracking up, so the muslims believe there has been tampering in the bible, and the christians think that the koran has been seriously tampered with..
So two of u are there tampering yourselves.. U know the nigerian word for all this is 'ORIGINAL MUGU".
Because again as I talked about in my previous post, who then has credibility?
And if both sides claim that there has been tampering in both books, how far back does this tampering go? is it a little tampering? Medium tampering or absolute tampering?

Azazel said...

@ Aradi
You MISS my point about faith. Faith demands that you accept ideas without question. A SUSPENSION of reason. How would someone faithful to an idea KNOW that she is being used if by its very definition, faith denies her the ONLY INSTRUMENT that can make that determination?

Just as you don't need proof that Mary the mother of God intercedes for you,RADICAL ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISTS don't need proof of the 70 virgins awaiting them in heaven after blowing themselves up. You frown at them for having the wrong faith/being used. They frown at you for having the wrong faith/being used. I frown at both of you for throwing away the only thing that can help you discern.

Please I would love if u answered the question asked by Enoch? Because that has always been my problem with faith, it does not give you answers it just stops you from asking questions.
How then does one judge whether their faith is true or not if one is incapable of asking questions??

Aradi said...

I will answer the historical question first, Azazel.

The Jizya was imposed on non-believers only. I have mentioned the benefits they get in return, I am not sure, but I also believe the benefits include taking from the Bayt'al Mal (these are like warehouses in which Muslims donate charity and are taken care of by certain officials, the poor and needy go to these houses and they will be provided for). They are not required to fight wars for Islam or partake in other activities like establishing mosques. Indeed some of them are hired to pay the children to read and write and one particular Jew used to write letters and other texts for Muhammad. He later claimed that Muhammad got his knowledge from him and that he inspired the Qur'an.

As for examples of Muhammad using force on anyone... well, that's why I urge you to read for yourself, innit? You will always take my version of history and you will always dispute it. If you read it for yourself you can make a judgement regarding the matter yourself. Just try to open your mind, knowledge will come to you from sources you do not expect. Personally I know of no account of Muhammad using force on anyone to convert, and it is hugely condemned in the religion. There are certain people, the most notable being Abu Talib bin Abd'al Mutallab, the uncle of the Prophet who raised him and protected him from the harm of the tribe, who did not convert to Islam before he died. His high social standing among the Quraysh prevented him from doing so. This was a cause of huge grief for Muhammad. I know of no account in history of Muhammad and his companions forcing anyone to convert.

And then you mention something that I have heard no Christian say; that the Qur'an had been tampered with. I have never heard such an accusation before. I was under the impression that most Christians do not believe that Muhammad was a Prophet in the first place. Indeed, some members of the church (prior to acquiring biogrophical accounts of his like, and there are plenty in much detail) branded him as an evil entity, the 666, the Antichrist, or even the son of the devil. Subhanallah, in this current period that several Christians are more wide-read and have access to his biographies, they merely view him as a very wise and great leader. I have mentioned how George Bernard Shaw respected him as the most influential human being and other western luminaries like Florence Nightingale regarded the Islamic Civilisation in awe.

And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic." (Qur;an 61:6)

Aradi said...

Azazel, it really seems to me that you rely on Enoch's logic too much. Since you and me started these discussions can you tell me how many times I have told you that asking questions is indeed a good thing? I have told you how I asked questions myself. We are urged to ask questions in Islam and there are several verses in the Qur'an in which Allah challenged people to put the Qur'an in scrutiny.

I don't know where this notion comes from the faith and reason cannot co-exist. As humans, we are very clearly not creatures of reason alone. You, Azazel, have seen my formula for Rationale. Although it might appear to certain people otherwise, our rationale is always never driven by reasoning alone. So to say that when we act or think in a certain way, our rationale must be entirely driven by faith or reason is not exactly robust.

A faith is a strong belief in something. Even you lot have faith; your conviction in your atheistic beliefs. This faith is most likely driven by the path of perceived truths your reasoning fathomed to be accurate and which it followed to arrive at what you believe in now.

Myself, I have faith. I have faith that we are all creations of a Supreme Being. When I wish to talk to him I cleanse my physical body with wudu (ablution) or ghusl (bath), pray to him, prostrate to him in absolute humility, praise him with his beautiful names, give gratitude to him, and ask him of my needs. If I want Him to talk to me, I read the Qur'an, do Dhikr (repetitive praise and rememberance- some Sufis, or Islamic Philosophers, practice Dhikr while reflecting to attain an elevated level of enlightenment). Faith, or Imaan, is the first pillar of Islam before Salaat (prayer), Sawm (fasting), Zakaat (compulsory annual charity of 1/40 of your wealth), Sadaqaat (voluntary charity, including smiling at people and positive acts), and Hajj (pilgrimage). That is my faith. My faith requires me to abide to a code of conduct, and ultimately be a better person. In Islam, if someone has pure faith in his heart, he is said to be among the people of paradise (jannah).

My Reasoning 100% affirms to this Faith. I am very happy being a Muslim, and I enjoy learning more about this religion. If I don't understand, I ask. I ask and I ask and I ask.

Perhaps some of you feel alienated by Islam from the outside, and feel you will be judged if you ask Muslims about it. What am I saying, the world is afraid of Islam! I assure you though, if you ask any knowledgeable scholar your questions, you shall have them answered. One thing for certain, you shall get far more deeper answers from these scholars and mullahs than from someone like me; a mere learner.

Every pub in Europe and the States and every internet forum around the world must have tired by now of the stereotypical, played out, GeorgeBushDrivelly, dramatic-anime-sigh-ly, 72 versions thing. It reeks all over of lack of knowledge about Islam. Let me tell you this straight, succinct, precise;

WE DO NOT BELIEVE SUICIDE BOMBERS HAVE FAITH!! THAT'S WHY THEY ARE, UM... SUICIDE BOMBERS!!

No basis in religion whatsoever, and we believe they shall be punished in hell. The label of terrorism and Islam is getting old. If America goes back to feuding with Korea again, will you label them next?

Aradi said...

Something that is important when understanding our Islamic Belief is that Allah is in no need of our worship. If everyone worshipped him, or if everyone sinned, it makes no difference to Him. Belief (Imaan), and worship (Ibadah) are indeed supposed to be of beneficial to us humans. They are supposed to enrich our lives and give it meaning and purpose. To have us abide by a just code of conduct that drives us to a life of love, justice, and wisdom. Allah needs no ones prayers and loses or gains nothing when we pray. Indeed, we believe prayer and Imaan are part of human nature.

We believe everybody is born with an inherent belief in God (Fitrah) as part of our very nature and that upbringing corrupts it for some. When children or babies die, they are believed in Islam to be of the people of paradise. So we believe deviating from this Fitrah is deviating from our own nature and the way we are supposed to be.

Knowledge itself and wisdom are relevant only in their applications. From the way I gather, some of you would rather the Qur'an is a book for a certain kind of people; a sort of sophisticated science manual. But it is a universal book. It is meant for everyone of any age, level of intellect, race or social class. So it contains knowledge that is relevant for everyone. When the insightful read it, they are said to have a deeper level of understanding than others.

The insightful refers to the very wise and knowledgeable, whose knowledge is not measured by the works, names or dates of the works of others they memorised but in their understanding of nature, the sciences and life. There are insightful people among all generations, from the companions of Muhammad 1400 years ago, to those among us in this very day and age.

Science and Islam goes hand in hand. Everyone knows the Einstein quote, but I shall repeat it for emphasis; "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind). Allah refers us to the world around us, asks us to observe and to reflect, and tells us that, truly, the signs are visible to the insightful.

A lot of academic and scientific breakthroughs were made by Islamic scholars prior to the Renaissance. The field of optics, astronomy, mathematics (including the use of the current decimal system, the invention of algorithms and algebra), medicine, philosophy and the now ancient field of alchemy. These were not sparse, sporadic findings we hold up in our ignorance. They are literature written in fine detail (and you would also find references to Aristotle, Plato and other ancient scholars), and revolutionary in their own might.

Science explains 'how'. Religion tells you 'why'. With the correct understanding of both, you understand 'what'.

Azazel said...

@ one particular Jew used to write letters and other texts for Muhammad. He later claimed that Muhammad got his knowledge from him and that he inspired the Qur'an.

and u do not believe him why?

Lol Aradi
I am not scared of muslims, christians etc.. I would ask any of those people questions and if they shut me up, then well "Shrug".

My problem with u is this, u seem to have a tendency to pick and choose what u want to place ur faith on.
U mentioned the Jewish teacher or writer for Mohammed who claimed that he gave Mohammed ideas, yet u do not believe that he did.. why is that? Is Mohammed more credible than the Jew? And why would u think Mohammed is more credible? Based on his words?
@ the Jizya was imposed on non-believers only. I have mentioned the benefits they get in return,

Didn't muslims enjoy these benefits as well? Did they have to pay for it also?

Aradi said...

Azazel, not only was Muhammad infinitely more credible than that particular Jew, but the man (I'm not sure of his name at the moment) knew nothing. He was merely a scribe. Muhammad had several scribes, but the closest and most dedicated of all was Zaid bin Thabit. I've mentioned Ibn Thabit before, he was the person that led the team that compiled and standardised the Qur'an after Muhammad's death.

I don't know why you are pursuing the Jizya cause - it's pure politics and economics. I'm sure, Azazel, that your tuition fees are about four or five times the amount home-based students pay in the States and that you're not eligible for Student Loans. The non-Muslims stay in a Muslim state and rather than contributing nothing to the fledgling states, their literacy and wealth were put to good use. The tax was not meant to cripple them, they had no qualms paying it. I assure you, the Muslims at the time gave so much of their wealth at the time that the Jizya tax was a paltry sum in comparison to it.

Oh, and the reason Muhammad needed so much scribes was that he couldn't read or write. And coming back to that Jewish scribe, he died shortly after his claims. His body was found outside of his grave when they buried him. Of course, Muhammad was blamed for this. He advised them to lay watch on the grave to prove his innocence, when they woke up after sleeping on watch, out he was again. His corpse was finally thrown in the sea.

He was part of the Jewish tribes of Madinah that Muhammad banished for conspiring against him several times when he himself had lived amicably with them. Amongst them was Abdullah ibn Ubayy, a hypocrite of the highest order who Muhammad accepted and forgave several times after his conspiracies where exposed. Ibn Ubayy even conspired a rebellion so great that it cost the Muslims a battle. Trust me, they were nowhere near as honourable as Muhammad who has been called The Trustworthy all his life. I mean, even if you don't know the historical facts, think about it! This man, a mere scribe, claimed he taught Muhammad The Revolutionary all he knew! That is sheer, undiluted, unfounded arrogance similar to the one of Samaritan I recounted on you in the story of Moses.

Muhammad is free of arrogance. He always says "by the will of Allah", "if Allah wills" whenever he says something and never attributed any of his knowledge to himself. A man that claims he taught a great leader all he knew did not write the Qur'an countless people read and admired throughout history.