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Sunday, April 4, 2010


Easter to me is a day when 2.5billion Christians decided 2 believe the word of the 'disciples' of christ that their leader had risen from the dead.I wonder who is more gullible, the people who lived in christ's era or the people who are living in this modern era? Because it takes a lot of gullibility for people to believe that a man could die and then resurrect three days later. And then when I asked what Jesus really came to change, somebody told me that he came to make 'asking for forgiveness easier and being forgiven easier as well'. Seeing as that before God use to require that all those animals be killed just so he could forgive man pikin. Personally, I think the proper term for Easter should be 'Happy Gullibility' day.Lazarus rose from the dead to, I wonder why we don't worship him. This brings me to my other question, what makes a man God?? Permit me to qualify that statement, I mean what qualifications must a man have in other to be considered a God.  

Someone told me that Jesus was obviously a God because he performed miracles etc, now Jesus was not the only person to do miracles in the bible and am sure I do not have to provide an example of other people in the bible who performed miracles but just incase somepeople do not know. People like Moses, Paul, Peter, Jeremiah, Isiah, Ezra etc performed miracles. So obviously if it takes performing miracles for one to be called a God, now all these other people would fall under that category. 

The other qualification that somebody told me was that, Jesus is a God because he 'rose' from the dead. Now as I previously mentioned, if it takes 'rising from the dead' for a man to be considered a God then Lazarus would be considered a God as well. Now some of you will say well, Lazarus was raised from the dead by Jesus and I will say that Jesus was raised from the dead by God. So @ the end of the day, as long as person sha rise from the dead it does not matter who is helping them to rise, as long as them sha rise come dey walk they go, then they have 'risen'. So obviously the 'rising from the dead' part is out of the window... Anybody that can come up with other qualifications that make a man God, is welcomed to do so.

Now unto the catholic church, I do not know if yall remember my post about NO MAN IS INFALLIBLE? Well in the catholic church, they believe in this thing called 'Papal Infallibility', now Ego du jour told me that this applies to only the conversation a pope has with God but not with a pope's personal life etc. Papal Infallibility is discussed in this catholic website (Papal Infallibility). See before if I was trying to persuade somebody to my argument I would use any means necessary in order to win, neglecting the truth but this days if am arguing with somebody and I know something that can help them win that argument, I do not keep it to myself I offer it to them. Because at the end if I truly say that I want truth, then I should not manipulate or hide the process of reaching the truth of a matter from people just because I want my ego to be 'stroked' because I won an argument. Hence, why I posted the catholic website, normally I would have gotten something from wikipedia and called it a night, but if I honestly want to be truthful I should go to the catholic website because they themselves can explain what papal infallibility is. Now from what I got from that website, Ego du Jour was right, papal infallibility does deal with the pronouncements made by the pope with the assistance of the Holy Spirit. But my question now is this, how does a pope who kept quiet while children were being molested still maintain credibility in the form of 'papal infallibility'??  Why then should anybody trust any 'Holy Decrees' uttered from this man's lips?? A serious loss in credibility. This man knew kids were being molested but rather than expose it, preferred to keep it a secret. Why you may ask would a holy man do that?? Because the thing about  religious institutions is that most people who work for them would rather sweep things under the rug than let it see the light of day. In my humble opinion, this pope's  moral compass would make Hitler and Stalin blush. 200 kids were molested by this priest yet pope benedict did nothing to stop it. Make una no vex about this infrequent postings, but man pikin has been very busy... I am going to make blog rounds come Thursday afternoon lol.


Lady X said...

Chill. The pope knew about the molesting thing? I think it's odd for people to call Jesus God when Jesus himself said he is a prophet of said God. God is God and Jesus was a man and a great one but still a man and not God.

Fragilelooks said...


The Messiah said...

John 1-15. "The Word was God...and dwelt among men..." I'll tell you who really is God: Wayne Rooney, and he shall rise Man U from the dead next Wednesday. And that is why I celebrate Easter. Amen.

Azazel said...

Lmao @ the Messiah..
True @ lady X.. Very true

Realist said...

You say God raised Jesus, well yes...but Jesus is God.

@Lady X when did Jsus say he was a prophet?

@The Messiah... I will personally pray to Rooney if that happens.

Back to infidel number one aka Azazel. If you some how prove that papal infallibility is wrong that doesnt do anything to the faith. Its just a construction of man, no where in the bible did the bible talk about a pope, let alone papal infallibility. It wont be the first time man has corrupted God's word.

Chuk said...

bro Eche..its funny how wise u claim to be and how u claim to know all..would u really "be mad with the truth than sane with lies"..cuz it seems like the opposite..Jesus said the sign HE would give to prove that He was the Son of God is to spend 3 days and 3 nights in da grave and rise..the Christian faith is garbage without the resurrection..thats why His tomb was guarded so the disciples wouldnt supposedy 'steal His body'..the Resurrection is the cornerstone and foundation of the Christian faith..that is why there have been so many theroies that people have come up with to try to disprove the Resurrection but they all fail man..shine ur eyes well well bros lol

于名于名 said...


Azazel said...

Lol but no where in the bible did it talk about Jesus being God, it said he was the son of God not the God of son.

Chuk lol in future please specify where I've claimed to be wise and what I was doing when i said it. Kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth.

Azazel said...

Mehn if rooney should come back I'll be happy

Chuk said...

Eche I hate to say it man..i didnt mean to put words in ur mouth..forgive me please..its just that u come off sometimes as thinking that u know all..
the Son of God..not a son of God..i am a son of God but not THE Son of God..a clear difference..he was put on trial for claiming to be God..He said He and the Father are one..when He was asked the question in His trial..He boldy said that He is the Son of God which makes Him God and equal to God the Father Himself..u need 2 understand the Trinity to fully understand it..many places in da Bible where Jesus claimed to be God

48 said...

@ Chuk: Ditto.

Azazel: Havent commented on here much, but I read your posts and I think you have so much much and I rarely say things like that. But...and i say this with a lot of're probably the most misguided person i know when it comes to faith.

I dont do religion so I stay out of these things e.g the whole papal infallibility thing, but i feel compelled to tell you that you cant do/be much in this life without faith. it takes faith to believe that there is a God OR that there is no God; so make up your mind, choose one and be at peace with your decision...cos trying to prove/disprove that some type of religion is jargon is a sure sign that you dont even know what you believe.

P.S: Jesus is not a God; he is the living God. He simply became man so he could save everyone - esp ppl like me, who choose to believe and realize how much they need his grace and mercy. Have a great week mon cher:>

leggy said...

i would like to know the verse in the bible where Jesus ever said that He is the prophet of God.

Chuk said...

@ 48..amen ooo lol..gimme five lol..u hit da nail right on da head..He truly is the God and He's Alive!

Realist said...

@azazel... you asked where in the bible did it say Jesus was God? Hope this is enough

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...
1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.”

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Myne Whitman said...

Happy Easter Azazel. Jesus is Alive!

Aradi said...

The mechanics behind the whole Jesus is God concept is just too difficult for me.

First of all, God is far far above inseminating a human being. Therefore you can assume that he didn't father him in the strictest sense, and that he created him in the tomb of the virgin Mary. That shall mean that he was indeed a man like any other. An incredible man, but not a god.

Likewise I can point out that Adam and Eve had no parents. No virgin mother to speak of. That means there conception is every bit as miraculous as that of Jesus.

As for Jesus's resurrection. The Islamic viewpoint is that he had never been nailed on the cross in the first place, but another took his place. We believe he is still very much alive, and shall descend when the time comes to guide the unguided and lead the true mu'mineen (believers) by the letter of the Qur'an.

Also, we believe he spoke in the cradle, when the people suspected Mary of fornication. These are the verses in Surat'al Maryam, in the Qur'an;

[Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah . He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.
And He has made me blessed wherever I am and has enjoined upon me prayer and zakah as long as I remain alive
And [made me] dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me a wretched tyrant.
And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive."

Zakah means obligatory annual charity as ordained in Islam. The Chapter of Mary in the Qur'an discusses this dispute, I recommend a read.

Aradi said...

And lest you say you have spotted a contradiction, what he meant by "the day I will die and shall be raised alive", is when he finally dies in the future, after defeating the one-eyed Dajjal (anti-christ) and leading the righteous with the Al Mahdi. He shall die and be resurrected on the Yawm-ul Qiyamah (Day of Recompense) as will all of us, to account for our deeds.

EDJ said...

Haha dost my eyes deceiveth me or did you agree with something I said about the Catholic church? CHEI! Happy Easter indeed!

For real, I don't know why it seems that Catholic priests are prone to molestation of children. Probably because they aren't allowed to marry, or maybe the selection process is somehow biased to select pedophiles. I agree that the pope knowing about this should make people doubt his credibility, but then again this is where common sense must enter. Much as I would love to believe everything I hear from religious institutions, sometimes the problem with Christianity is Christians.

leggy said...

@aradi,I'm christian and You are Muslim .Easter is a Christian holiday and a Christian cannot use the qu'ran to say anything about Christianity just as I cannot use the bible to say anything about Moslems.I'm a christian I follow the teachings of the bible,if you can show me where in the BIBLE that claimed that Jesus was a prophet and not God then I might actually pay you some can't argue another religion with another religion.something about that just isn't right.

LucidLilith said...

What makes a man God?
The RepubliCON party..te he he...

Anyway, according to ancient texts and history, the deity of Jesus Christ was decided on a vote. This was to calme the warring factions of early Christianity and bring about order in the church. It was about the same time the books of the bible were selected and voted on as the TRUTH.

El-Divine said...

honestly its easy to be a deluded xtian and not know it. ppl who wanna help xtianity's cause at the hands of eche should at least know enough to make sense and not claim what the bible hasnt claimed.

Jesus isnt GOD. he said...and i quote : "no one comes to the FATHER except through me." how person go go through a person to get to that same person.
He said again "these ones my father has given me", unless ppl walk on their head in heaven im sure that doesnt mean he gives things to himself.
Jesus was the son of God, and so he made claim to divinity...but he is not God. Trinity is a bitch concept, and a lot of the time, catholic church allows one man to spit unbiblical shit in the name of papal infallibility. they say its limited only to doctrine..but even in that sole area the pope still makes monumental mistakes. the trinity concept, the mary assumption thingy..and a whole bunch of other fallacies are a product of one pope's fanciful thoughts probably inspired by whatever philosophical text he happend to have by him at the time.

F said...

Hmmm... I was hoping not to be as late to comment on the next post as I was with the other one... I'm slacking sha...

You have satisfactorily dismantled all those stupid arguments. I had never heard the one about resurrection sha. So if it is defeating death that counts as a divine quality, Enoch and Lazarus sef dey call shots for Heaven abi? ABEG.

I think the real cause of all this "Jesus is God" gist is the Trinity doctrine. Nowhere in the Bible does it say God is a Hydra with three heads having equal power and status. In fact, God is consistently placed above the other two members if the supposed Trinity. In John, Jesus constantly speaks of returning glory to the Father and not being able to do anything by Himself. The Holy Spirit is portrayed as a facilitator, of you will. Neither of the two is God and were never intended to be shown as such.

About Easter... Hmmm... Saying I struggle with this is an understatement. There is no biblical commandment that such a holiday should even exist, let alone stretch out into a weekend. Specific mention was made of rituals like the Eucharist but never a holiday celebrating the coming of Spring preceded by forty days of torture. (Y'all know that's all lent is. Torture with self-adulation. U no chop chocolate for forty days. Clap for yourself.)

Yet, I am a Christian. I believe that Jesus' death was intended to be a sacrifice, a bridge, if you will... One connecting humans to God. He can do anything so I don't doubt that His power could have raised Jesus from the dead. Why God chose this route, I do not know. Why in spite of being omnipotent, He chooses not to do certain things, I do not know. I mean, here I am slaving away in school pursuing some degree when Miley Cyrus and Rihanna are raking in stupid money from singing careers DESPITE LACKING THE VERY TALENT OF SINGING. There are just some things that cannot be explained. :)

Realist said...

@El Divine, you decided to skip all the other verses I listed that shows Jesus is God, and stick to one verse.

Yes no one comes through the Father but by him, because like it says (and like i posted earlier) in John 10:30 “I and My Father are one.”

I love how supposedly smart people like to ignore arguments that are contradictory to their opinions.

If the argument is not understanding how Jesus and God the Father is one, I would understand, but the argument is that the Bible never said Jesus is God, when it clearly says it

The Messiah said...

Hmm very intellectual discussions I see.
@Realist: I'm holding you accountable for your words about Rooney, and I want you to publicly announce that you pray in Rooney's name and make a public prayer in Rooney's name to make sure your actions match your words. Also looking at EL-Divine's argument about the son and father being separate and your (Realist) counter, that Jesus said "I and the father are one." It is also fair to assume he meant "one" the same way a married couple are "one." Besides on the cross, the father forsook the son, and was proud of him when he got baptized at 30, so that obviously shows a separate being in regards to the father and son. Just thought I should throw in an argument in Divine's favour.

@ leggy, why can't Aradi use his Islamic text to argue? Afterall, Jesus was in the Qu'ran so why not? Even though I agree with neither you or Aradi's beliefs, I still think it's legitimate for a logical discussion, especially for examining different perspectives.

leggy said...

@the messiah...i wouldn't used the bible to argue about anything in the islam religion cos i feel like if i ever use the Bible to prove something muslims believe to be right as wrong then that means that i feel like my religion is superior to the next and that my Bible is more accurate than the next holy book.
see?no matter how much people like to claim that the two religions are alike it is so clear that it is not cos easter is the basis of the Christian faith.i dont expect you to agree or disagree with me, i dont expect you to not doubt me, all i want you to do is respect that fact.

Azazel said...

To be honest I really do enjoy your commentary..
And I like what you said about Lent.
Very insightful.

does have a point, one cannot argue against christianity while using their own texts. Makes no sense, it's the same way I had to go to the catholic website to get a real definition of 'papal infallibility'. Going to get a definition of papal infallibility from wikipedia would make no sense.

Please explain how Jesus and God can be the same person..?? Am sure u have done research and as lucidilith pointed out, the bishops @ the council had to vote on 'Jesus's deity'.

The Messiah said...

No, I disagree. It's like writing a biography for a man and saying his family is the only valid source, ignoring his friends and colleague's POV. Isn't it the same man they're talking about? I'm guessing leggy wouldn't be so unreceptive to Aradi's beliefs if the Qu'ran quoted everything in the New Testament. Let's see a different perspective. That's all. That's what forums like this blogspot are for. This isn't about superiority or inferiority, it's about perspectives. And besides, I am curious to know how the Qu'ran portrays Jesus.

Azazel said...

Good point @ Messiah..
I fell into the trap of the danger of the single story..

F said...

I didn't read through the comments before I left mine. Realist's was particularly insightful. OK here we go...

I totally see your point. Yet, the crucial mistake is not reading these verses in context. The best way to understand verses in the Bible is to use other correlating verses to get the intended meaning. Verses like the following:

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.”

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...
1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us

These show closeness... Like how people say two peas in a pod... Friends having one mind etc. They are meant to illustrate the relationship between Jesus and God, not to argue that JESUS IS GOD. John 17:11 shows Jesus praying to God to unite the disciples he left behind, just as he and God are united- "... that they may be one as We are." In fact through the whole of John, a common theme of replicating the close relationship between Jesus and God in a new way between Jesus and the Church is evident.

Now the other two...

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

The emphasis here is on what Jesus was CALLED, not what He was. Isaiah says Jesus will be CALLED "Mighty God" not that He WAS The Mighty God. In the same way, the context in which Jesus is called God by Thomas has to be considered. Thomas doubted the ressurrection and was shocked out of his mind when he himself felt the wounds and saw it was truly Jesus, he reacted out of incredulity. Isaiah and John therefore show people's reactions to Jesus in these passages, not necessarily his actual divine nature.

The book of John shows Jesus stressing over and over again how he could do nothing by Himself and always sought to return glory to God (John 5:30- "I can od Myself do nothing... I seek not My own will but the will of the Father who sent me"). This message is emphasised repeatedly throughout John. If we believe that the Bible is truly the God-breathed word of the Father, then you have to accept that the emphasis placed on the distinction between Jesus and God had to have been placed there for a reason.

Sorry this was long... My name is Funmi and I am a typaholic. :)

By the way, Azazel, thanks for stopping by the blog... I blush reluctantly at the compliment o, lol :)

leggy said...

@messiah,its all cool and stuff to want to know how he was portrayed in the Qu'ran. but mohammed and Jesus were in two different times, i could argue and say that because the Bible said nothing about mohammed that that means that he never existed. see?
i just feel that both religions are mutually exclusive and should be left as so.anyway, nice post though. happy easter.

The Messiah said...

@ leggy, "i could argue and say that because the Bible said nothing about mohammed that that means that he never existed. see?" I really hope you don't argue that, because there are so many things unsaid in the Bible that exists, for example, other planets like Mars and Jupiter. And they do share a mutual bond: They are Abrahimic religions.

Azazel said...

Good point @ Messiah again..
Leggy do u see his point, just because the bible did not mention mohammed does not mean he did not exist..

Realist said...

the question is not how to explain If Jesus and God are the same people, the question was that the bible never says Jesus is a God... which i proved it did. The discussion was not about the Council of Nicea it was about what the bible said on Jesus's deity.

Explaining how Jesus and God are the same person, goes into explaining the trinity, which is a waste of time because you need "Faith" to believe that. Our human minds can not understand it, we just have to take it for face value or not. That is why they are called "Faiths" we simply can not rationalize everything about it, we just believe (or choose not to).

Azazel said...

Lol look @ u being disingenous..
U have faith in something 'created by men who gathered @ a council'..
And u don't think there's something wrong with that, what a pity u don't beleive in unicorns as welll....
What kind of demented comment is that realist???
So u choose to believe in the trinity even though research prooves to u that this was something that was 'Voted upon'..
People Voted for u to have faith in something.. smh

leggy said...

my point exactly, just because the bible did not mention mohammed doesnt mean he never exist, and just because the qu'ran claimed that Jesus is just a prophet doesnt mean its true is it?
totally exclusive books, totally exclusive religions and they should be left that way.

Nutty J. said...

...its futile trying to argue if Jesus is God or not. Whatever is said will not change the POV of the writer.

Best thing to do, is for every one to stick to their beliefs or un-beliefs and seek to know more on their own.

Its not the truth they tell you, that sets you free....It is the truth YOU KNOW that sets you free.

Aradi said...

I'm sorry, Leggy, but Islam and Christianity, like Messiah said, share a bond, both being Abrahamic religions. Infact, just as the Qur'an refers to Jesus, so the Bible refers to Moses, Ishmael, Isaac, and Abraham, and I hear no Jew proclaiming for everyone to stick to their own time line.

The simple fact of the matter, and forgive me if this offends any one of you, is that there is no scientific procedure whatsoever to safeguard the purity of the Bible. It has been written and rewritten by several people throughout history, and as Azazel referred to the council of Nicea, so I can list to you other inclusions in the Bible of pagan origin, such as the celebration of Saturnian, the images of Zeus, Hades and Horus, and also importantly, the dating of Biblical events. It is very common knowledge these days that even Christmas is not celebrated on the day Christ was born (a scholar pointed out to me just recently that based simply on the matter that people ate date fruits at the time, and those are known to ripen only up to August, the dating could be refuted).

The Arabian Christian Monk Waraqah bin Nawfal and also the Christian Ethiopian Negus both accepted the Qur'an's version of events at the time of the Prophet Muhammad (sorry to pick on this again Azazel, but if you only read the speech I linked on your wall about the matter...)

Sheikh Ahmad Deedat of South Africa has been known to debate this issue using only Biblical references; he disputed the timing, pointed out contradictions and also other issues. If anyone of you is interested, I could find the trabscripts. Likewise, the American Sheikh Yasin has also debated this topic with members of the clergy in Australia.

To dispute the Qur'anic version of events, also, you cannot point out to "tamperings", ambiguity, or distortions. The Qur'an has not only been written, but has also been memorised by countless people around the world (I have met plenty throughout my life!). Therefore, you could only dispute the validity of the Prophet Muhammad's source, which he claims is God. I take such claims with a hefty helping of salt because I am familiar with most minute details of his life, and find no fault. If you so wish, you could look up on that yourself.

And to conclude, a lot of Muslim scholars indeed make claims that Jesus refers to the coming of the Prophet Muhammad in the Bible, as the one who completes the faith. Make of that what you will.

Aradi said...

Also, if anyone wishes to take the initiative, I would be delighted to read a detailed explanation of the Trinity. None I've heard so far has done the concept any justice. Perhaps a post on the matter?

BBB said...

is Jesus God?
i believe he is, he is the Son of God, and he is God, the bible is a simple and complex book,
our basis of christianity is faith, the ability to believe without seeing without ahving physical proof, that is the basis,

Jesus said Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed John 20 :29

but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name John 20: 31

i am a christian
and i stand proud to believe that Jessu Christ is God, he is lord and he is everlasting
and he died and was ressurected after 3days.
That is faith, i wasnt there but i believe with my whole heart
that God sent him to this earth,

the point of easter is that we celebrate the sacrifice that Jesus made, going through persecution for our sake, after doing no wrong
he came down to earth and became man, and lived like man so that we may be saved
he gave up his life for no just cause.

For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom
Mark 10 : 45

Trying to understand the bible in laymans terms will not do
you have to believe and be born again.

And to compare the resurrection of lazarus and Jesus is blasphemy,
Jesus foretold his death time and time again in the bible, that he will die and rise again after 3days.

this is my stand
i am not arguing
this is my belief

Lady X said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lady X said...

Leggy you can like to type Lady X before your question so I know you are directing it at me. Did I ever say that in the 'BIBLE' Jesus said he was a prophet. No I did not. Please don't put words into my mouth. Please correct me if I am wrong but it seems to me that you are alluding that I and Aradi I can't speak of Jesus in the Islamic point of view. Soon you will tell me Jesus is only for Christians. The Bible does not mention Prophet Muhammad because the Bible was created before he came along. And besides Christians don't believe that Prophet Muhammad was a prophet, else they would be Muslims!

Realist please answer me this, If Jesus was a prophet, who resurrected him? Or did he resurrect himself. If Jesus was God how is it that a woman gave birth to him? Did the Lord not speak to Jesus? If Jesus was God then who is the "Lord" that was speaking to him? Jesus is the son of God. If he is God then how can he be the Son of God?

Romans 1:4-5
And Jesus Christ our Lord was shown to be the Son of God when God powerfully raised him from the dead by means of the Holy Spirit. Through Christ, God has given us the privilege and authority to tell Gentiles everywhere what God has done for them, so that they will believe and obey him, bringing glory to his name.

It says right there that GOD resurrected him. He sha did not resurrect himself. So he is not God. A great prophet and extraordinary man but not God. My "holy" people beware of Blasphemy o! God does not like to compared to men.

Lady X said...

You gotta love Google. I found these Bible Verses. Do read them

Mark 10:18 Here is the link

Matthew 23:1-9

Acts 2:22

Azazel said...

LOL Aradi I know o, do not worry I will get around to reading it..

Nutty J
Interesting concept that it is the truth u know that sets u free, not the truth they people tell u..
I shall get back to u on that.

Lol @ BBB
I have respect for u hun, but honestly when it comes to ur religion u don't know jackshit.
Comparing Jesus to Lazarus is blasphemy?? Really? Lmao Ok o.

Lady X
It seems that u did not know that it is possible for a man to speak to himself....
In today's culture they diagnose people who suffer from such trinity illnesses with multiple bipolar disorder.

rayo said...

fuck d pope nd all their hypocrisy!

Realist said...

@Azazel, let me believe in what i want to believe, am i forcing it on you? Am I writing post saying you are going to hell? You made a wrong statement about the bible, and i corrected it. I didnt need your condescending "I am right because i can reason, and anyone who is a christian is a fool" comment. So next time do not write fallacies about the bible.
Yes the trinity was voted upon, but sects of Christianity believed it before the vote; you are acting like the idea was made up at the council. His disciples believed in Jesus's divinity, thats good enough for me. The definition of faith is believing in things you cant prove, and yes by human reasoning thats deluded, so be it.

Realist said...

@Lady X.
I am not trying to convince anyone that Jesus and God the Father are the same. I am just stating what the bible says. The bible shows Jesus, Thomas, Isaiah and other calling Jesus, God. Thats where my argument ends. If you want to argue the concept of the trinity, find someone else. It cant be reasoned, that is why it is called a "faith". If what you are arguing is that the bible is wrong, then that is another argument. BTW... a woman gave birth to Jesus, but he was not conceived by a woman and/or man.Big difference

Lady X said...

Realist: And I have also shown you Bible Verses that prove that Jesus was not God. Did you read them? Or do you disagree with them? He spoke about God I think. Or do you agree with Azazel that Jesus spoke to himself? Your name is Realist so let's be real here now. So the concept of the Trinity is that Jesus is God? If that is the case then I will gladly keep shut as I am not about to delude myself that I understand the concept of Trinity. I never did. Clearly from the comments on the blog this is something where people have different views. Some Christians believe that Jesus is God and some don't.

The Messiah said...

@leggy, it is one thing to not mention, it is another to make a false claim (like you seem to imply the Qu'ran did). Have you asked yourself the same question: What if the claims your bible makes are false?
And a little correction, the Bible wasn't written before Mohammad, instead the books in the Bible weren't compiled before Mohammad. Until 325 AD, during the time of Constantine, the Bible wasn't even in existence. It was just a couple of religious books that were up for qualification to be compiled. That is why the Roman Catholics believe they were the first Xtians, because they organized what you call the Bible today.

The Messiah said...

And even the gospels that narrate Jesus's life that is in the New Testament weren't even written till 70 years after Jesus's death. Which leaves one questioning if Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John really wrote those books considering how old they would have been 70 years after Jesus's death

48 said...

Lol 49 comments later and I remember why I seldom get involved in this sort of discussions. It's just such a shame that people always look to logic. Like really, stop for a second and ask yourself if there isn't more to life than what your physical mind can comprehend.

[Explaining how Jesus and God are the same person, goes into explaining the trinity, which is a waste of time because you need "Faith" to believe that. Our human minds can not understand it, we just have to take it for face value or not. That is why they are called "Faiths" we simply can not rationalize everything about it, we just believe (or choose not to)]
@ Realist: man/woman, if you were nxt to me right now, I'd plant a big one on you for that input. Just remember not to get riled up about these things:D

Original Mgbeke said...

LOL, and Azazel I've missed you too...with your controversial self. Hahaha

Realist said...

@Lady X. Those verses just show that Jesus and God the father are different... They are different and the same, as Jesus, God the Father, and The Holy Spirit are three different manifestations of God... which is the Trinity.
@Messiah, i am not riled I am just not going to argue the Trinity. All i am answering is the fallacy that the Bible never says Jesus is God. I answered that. I do not understand the Trinity, i just accept it. Yes that goes against my rationale mind, and will not fool myself by trying to act like I understand it. I Choose to have faith in it.

Azazel said...

Yes indeed sects did believe in the trinity, but are u saying that all the 12 disciples believed in Christ's divinity??
Is this fact or are u assuming??

Exactly Messiah @ ur response to Leggy..

@ 48..
Lol let us assume that there is more to life than our 'logic'..
Why is it that u do not apply this same principle to everything in ur life??
When ur sick, don't go to the hospital, pray to God.
When u break ur leg, don't go to the hospital, wait for it to heal through divine healing..
Put ur mouth where ur faith is..

I've missed u to hun

Realist said...

From what the Bible says yea. Atleast Peter and Thoimas called him God at one point. That is what i draw my conclusion from

The Messiah said...

@Realist, I call Wayne Rooney God, is that really all it takes?
@48, "It's just such a shame that people always look to logic." It's just a shame? So if I reverse your statement it would be an honor to look up to nonsense?

Realist said...

i can care less. Now if you said the Bible calls Wayne Rooney God, then i would have to differ.

The Messiah said...

@Realist, I see your point, you go strictly by what the Bible says and what it says alone. No probs mate. And to argue in your favor about the trinity, one can claim that the father, son and holy ghosts are God. Just like liquid, gas, and solid is matter; kinetic and potential are energy; man and woman are human and so on. Maybe they're all separate beings who share the same throne. Like a goalkeeper and a striker playing for the same team. After all, in Genesis, it reads let US make man in OUR image. So I guess that could explain the trinity belief. And also in the trinity, the members even have different personalities. Jesus is the liberal and forgiving God willing to put down his life to redeem sinners. The Father is the jealous and law-enforcing God willing to torture you for eternity if you fail to comply with his demands for obedience, and the holy spirit is the God with a chip on his shoulder, whom if you offend, you will never be forgiven. Sounds polytheistic to me tho.

Aradi said...

Messiah, it probably sounds polytheistic because it is a reduction of God to the quality of his Aalamin (creations, worlds, etc).

In the Qur'an, it is said that God created this world on the concept of duality. From nothing, he made things on the extremities of a polar scale. Thus, you have your male and female, good and bad etcetera. However, God Himself is The One (Al Ahad is the word used, one of his 99 names, i.e. the 99 dimensions of his nature comprehensible to us).

I think it was Carl Jung that tried to tie in the concept of The Holy Ghost and justify the Trinity by claiming that an observation of this world reveals the concept of duality, but also that there is usually a third of paradoxical nature tied in. Sounds like a foolish attempt by an otherwise intelligent man to justify his faith.

And indeed God is the forgiving one (Al Raheem). His forgiveness is in vast abundance to he who turns to him. Thus, we have people like Khalid bin Walid and Abu Sufyan ibn Harb, two men who opposed Islam, fought and killed Muslims in war, and did all sorts of things, who converted to Islam and were warmly accepted. They are now two of the most widely revered people in the religion, and any Muslim that speaks ill of them is the biggest of fools because God has accepted and honoured them.

There is a hadeeth in Islaam in which The Prophet said after The Pen, the first creation, wrote the whole of creation, it wrote on God's throne, "My mercy exceeds my wrath".

There are several other stories showing the outstanding mercy of God but I am dangerously off-topic, and even that we are here, having enough everyday, rarely in want, and discussing such issues when not all of us are even grateful to God, and those of us that are grateful, not near enough, is a sign of the divine mercy.

Aradi said...

Coming back to the Trinity, if I understand correctly all that is written here, the great secret to understanding it is actually not understanding it at all bu having faith in it? I'm sorry, but that sounds like a very effective way to get people to believe in something without ever questioning it. Which is dangerous.

Religious Faiths should have a fair portion of logic and reasoning attached to them, else what is the use of prayer and deeds? As a Muslim I pray five times a day, and often pray extra voluntary prayers but I don't just do it based on complete blind faith. I do it because I'm assured it's the most effective way for me to purify myself.

If religious acts of worship cannot even be reasoned, and if you cannot even comprehend why you do what you do, then what is the whole point of doing it? After all, the view is that you are forgiven anyway without conscious effort on your part to seek it.

The Messiah said...

So if you indeed question your beliefs, do you ever try to see logic in not eating pig-meat?

Aradi said...

Pork, members of the dog family, cat family, horses, donkeys, dead animals, and blood are forbidden in Islam (I'm sure I've missed a few but you get the gist). However dead sea animals could be eaten.

The reason behind each of these is that in their own way they harm the body. Just like the prohibition of alcohol in Islam and also of any substance that harms the body.

Pigs carry parasites (worms, which, because of the large fat content, do not all die upon cooking unlike beef, etc), bacteria and viruses.

Religion is practised for our own benefit. We are not benefiting God by living up to religious teachings, but ourselves and society. So if certain things are prohibited, each of them is harmful in their own way, and pork falls under that category.

Even if pork is treated to become harmless, it is still haraam (prohibited) based on the knowledge that God has prohibited it. And the truly successful ones are those that maintain discipline in themselves and abstain from practices that are forbidden even if the reasons are not directly ambiguous to him.

You might take this to sound like a contradiction, but when absolutely all of the things ordained or prohibited in the religion make absolute sense(prayers, for example, obligatory and voluntary fasts, charity, worship in congregation, all the different types of Ghusl i.e purification by water), then it puts you in a safe place to deduce that therefore, there is wisdom in the prohibition of certain things.

This is a practice that even those of the Jewish faith retain (that is, the prohibition f pork).

2cute4u said...

You again?
No comment.

2cute4u said...

You again?
No comment.

Lady X said...

Messiah Thank you very much for the correction. Much appreciated.

Aradi said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Aradi said...

Indeed Lady X, (and someone correct me if I'm wrong here, 'cause I'm way out of my depth), but I learned from Sheikh Ahmad Deedat (and this view is backed up by other scholars) that the only Christian Scripture worthy of recognition is the Gospel of Barnabas, as it was the only one that documents the life of Jesus when the latter was alive. Recently, a Christian proclaimed to me that it is a book of lies. I don't quite know what to make of that.

"John Who?" argues Sheikh Khalid Yasin, "Pete Who?", "Mathew Who?" If even the bloodline of such people are not documented, and not a biography that we know of, then how are we to take as reliable scriptures regarding them? (Contrast this to the documentation by the Arabs of the companions of the Prophet, and even the Prophet Muhammad himself, whose ancestry could be dated farther back than you know, due to the Arabs' habit of keeping records, their hierarchical system of living, and also that they lived in clans of family heads - I personally could tell you his ancestors back to twenty people). Also the fact that you have people literally writing and rewriting history, it is very easy to see how inventions could sneak their way into this once wholly pure and monotheistic faith.

And Aisha bint AbuBakar, wife of the Prophet, narrated that the Prophet said, "Whosoever brings an invention into this affair of ours [religion] shall have it rejected" (transmitted by Bukhari, Muslim)

Anonymous said...

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur

Lady X said...

What an appropriate quote Anonymous.

Anonymous said...

you guys pele o! when una don complete your arguement, remeber say death becomes everybody.
and @Rayo "fuck the pope?" like seriously, how old are you? Please go learn some manners as that was completely RUDE and out of order.

The Messiah said...

@Aradi, what abut the women's burka?

sosexy said...

I won't hide behind the No COMMENTS group, cause Azazel, WHAT THE FRIGGIN HELL is this?
Somehow, I think you've lost it.
You blaspheme without remorse.
You don't talk about the pope like that.He's not God but hell?...Some respect.
Even if he knew,(I don't know the facts) There's something as preserving the sanctity of the church,The priest responsible, has been punished but you don't pope to discuss that.People look up to the church and when it crumbles, what do you think will happen?

Azazel said...

Lol @ Realist...
So as long as it says it in a BOOK u are more likely to believe it...

Realist so all messiah has to do is write Wayne Rooney is a God in a book and u are going to believe it?? Damn it's that easy..
Bro a man who would lie with his tongue would not hesitate to lie with his pen.

Lol @ sosexy..
The pope is a man sweety, just like u and i.
If God truly talks to him, then GOd talks to me to.
So because people look up to the pope/church I should not criticise it him/it when they do wrong???
Who cares whether it crumbles, if the truth needs to be dug out, then let everything and anything crumble and thats my opinion..
That pope has the moral compass of a toad, how exactly does one sit by and do nothing when 200 deaf children were molested.

48 said...

Azazel: how do you know that I don't put my mouth where my faith is? This is where i say: you don't know me like that homie:D On the real tho, I see how one would be on your side of the fence; faith seems like folly to the untrained eye but at the end of the day, it's not ALL about what you're told or what you read - part of it is what you've experienced. And yes, azazel, one can experience God for themself, you just gotta be open enough:)

@Messiah: No, of course not. Is the reverse always true? that's that 'always turning to logic' mess i'm talking about:) My point was/is: there are supernatural things going on all the time ergo a supernatural realm that cannot always be explained/understood via logic/rationalization.

Aradi said...

Admittedly, Messiah, I did not even know what the word burqa was until you mentioned it. Of course I know what it is. However, it is a sign that the clothing is something closer to the cultures of the peoples wearing them than Islam in general that I do not even know its closer term.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not attempting to distance myself from the doctrines on women to cover their body. Merely saying that the burqa in itself is something self imposed by people driven by their culture, admittedly a culture heavily influenced by Islam. Even though I have no opinion one way or the other about the burqa, I do not encourage certain things in the Pakistani culture, especially in regards to women.

In Islam, the injuction was to cover the parts of the body that are deemed to be awrah. It is indecent to expose the awrah and they often raise sexual desire in non-mahram members of the opposite sex (people that are lawful for marriage). The awrah for men is between the navel to the knees. Even though it is encouraged to cover more parts of the body, especially in prayer (some people wear hats always and don't even pray without hats), the awrah have to be absolutely covered.

For women, the awrah is every part of the body except the face, the hands, and the feet. The hair, the arms, thighs, etc are all awrah. A woman can only expose these parts of the body to mahram males (her siblings, husband, children, other mahram relatives etc).

This is all to guard people from losing their modesty and decency. Certain types of clothing like silk and adornment like gold and henna are prohibited for men. For women, silver, certain types of strong perfume, and even wearing things that would attract attention to themselves (excessively loud shoes for example), or even raising their voices high, or walking in a certain way to attract attention on themselves is forbidden.

In my culture, women wear hijabs, niqabs, or even just other lose head garments and that is absolutely fine. Some girls don't wear these, and often say "they're not ready" and I don't have an opinion on those because I know certain cultures put pressure on them (I'm not justifying their take on it, just attempting to understand it). Same as not all men keep beards even though it's encouraged.

I know the Western driven media chooses to focus on the negatives of Islamic states, and do not even attempt to differentiate religion, cluture, or even just blind stupidity of some people in the name of religion, so to understand these things, you have to have an exceptionally open mind and not just a robot of media propaganda.

Several girls that are hijabis are very colourful people whose company one can enjoy without any physical or sexual tension whatsoever. Likewise, several of them live in very stable homes, have great education (in some Arab states, there are more female students in institutions than males), and do not get shunted out to nursing homes by their children.

Aradi said...

The burqa, I don't know enough about because it is not part of my culture, more Pakistani, but I've said what Islam ordains.

If you're going to point to certain things wrong with certain cultures, you might as well also question why girls get bulimic or anorexic, why there are high divorce rates in the western world, the incessant need for girls to adopt very slutty behaviour to get attention from people, the hundreds of thousands of prostitution license given out by the government, children raised in broken homes. I mean, think about it, in this culture we find ourselves in some of the most honoured women who set trends for girls are blatant pornographic actresses.

If you ever want to know the wisdom behind the Islamic doctrines, think about that.

It's also noteworthy to add that these teachings were not ordained to make us celibate. Islam does not preach celibacy to anyone, not even religious leaders, but the Prophet repeatedly urged people to marry. In fact, Muslim people have married at much younger ages than in the western world (the "legal age" for being an adult being about 14/15). Also noteworthy, some of the rules regarding awrah do not apply for older women and young children.

sosexy said...

ReallY Azazel? So let me ask you this very simple question..
You catch your dad cheating on your mum with another woman you , you then open your mouth and start yapping uh?
You preserve the sanctity of their marriage and deal with your dad squarely?
I want to know

sosexy said...

ReallY Azazel? So let me ask you this very simple question..
You catch your dad cheating on your mum with another woman you , you then open your mouth and start yapping uh?
You preserve the sanctity of their marriage and deal with your dad squarely?
I want to know