How can I be a member of a blog and I rarely ever write posts? Nawa for me o
“God is dead.” Those words were uttered by Friedrich Nietzsche [exceptional fellow] sometime in the 19th century. Apparently, Friedrich was convinced he had stumbled upon an epiphany no one could deny. As far as he was concerned, the spread of science and enlightenment in Europe guaranteed God’s days were numbered. He believed this so much that he set out to devise a means of maintaining moral order in the absence of God. LOL.
Fast forward many many years to the present. Mr Nietzsche is dead and God apparently isn’t. Yes, there has been a clear decline in belief in God over the past century, but with Europe harboring believers in the healthy double digit percentage range and Africa in a conflagration for God; it's hard to make the case that God is in anyway desperate for some sort of life support.
On the one hand, I can see why the man thought the way he did. With the emergence of Darwin’s theories on evolution, advancements in astronomy and science in general, he was convinced that the truth will set us free. He probably believed that the natural consequence of such developments is an insurmountable burden on faith. I suspect he imagined that, in his time, one would need an unattainable size of faith to believe in tales of a talking snake convincing a grown woman [fashioned after a rib] to fail a test of obedience set by a God who drowns his own people in genocidal numbers. A God who, by the way, didn’t equip man with “the knowledge of good and evil” before going ahead to test man’s tendency to choose evil over good. A test posed as a onetime true/false exam, in the form of a fruit, and punishable by the death of all generations. What a fool Nietzsche was for having so much faith in common sense.
On the other hand; the guy underestimated God’s self preservation instincts, overstated man's capacity for radical ideological change and was just plain silly to put an expiration date on an idea. The sad irony is, for all his obsession with Darwin's work on evolutionary biology, and his own study of God morphing over time and across cultures, the man didn't count on God evolving to samba to the tune of the alleged death knell sounded by science. A dance that has grown in sophistication as God's followers edit, evermore rapidly, what they believe of him to suit their taste.
That one is a metaphor. This one, a translation error. Ignore that bit, that's just a reflection of their abhorrent cultural practices. No, that's just mans imperfection/prejudice sneaking into the word you can ignore it. Yup, It's the age of the personalized God. God 2.0. They may call themselves Christians/Muslims or Mormons, but within each group every individual worships a different customized version of God. This is very easy to verify, challenge any critical part of their books and the fevered editing takes off in every direction.
Maybe this unconscious breakup of the one God into a pantheon is indeed symptomatic of his demise. It is just possible that he is edited into oblivion, bit by bit, one fantastic tale after another. Perhaps that's what Friedrich foresaw? Chances are, he just got the obituary date wrong. Oh, how fulfilled he would be if he could witness this all too subtle slow death of God at the hands of God's own worshipers. Patricide of a divine variety. If he was a sadist, the pace might excite him.
Anyways, on to my question. As a believer, if you had the chance to speak with that clueless heretic, what would you tell Nietzsche is the basis of your faith?
PS: Please. This is about "belief in God" dying. It is not about God dying. It's a metaphor. That's how the phrase "God is dead" was originally used, and that's what this post is about. I didn't think I needed to spell it out, but judging from the number of comments I've received pointing out that "logical flaw," I should have included this PS from the start. I am however, amused to see that religious folks make the "belief is not equal to existence" connection easily.
54 comments:
I liked this post Enoch. I allowed myself to absord every single thing u were trying to convey.
I always naively believed that Everyone on earth if shown the 'Truth' would choose it and discard the lie. I largely based this belief upon Abraham Lincoln's quote which said "I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can be depended upon to meet any national crisis. The great point is to bring them the real facts. "
I always figured as long as u brought people the truth, they would definitely go for it.
But a friend of mine called Victor set me straight.
He said that there is Truth and there is 'What Functions'..
And most times what people have faith in is not 'Truth' but 'What Functions' and as long as 'What Functions' helps those people get through the day to day struggle of living in this miserable world that nobody should try to wake them up from their delusion because their delusion is what keeps them going.
He said that as long as people feel that they Happiness is the main goal in life, 'What Functions' will always Trump Truth time and time again.
As for what I would tell Friedrich well I do not think that I have faith in anything. Sometimes I think that not having faith in something could be a flaw in one's character, but am not to sure.
Wow! What a post! Definitely mind-blowing. But perhaps maybe God is dead and all we are left with is fragments of his biography every time the Holy Books are being read. Perhaps that explains why events such as the Heavens opening and voices of rushing water and clapping thunder uttering, only happened during His lifetime. Perhaps that's why every one thinks they are on God's side but God doesn't seem to make His favourites clear.
It makes one go back to Azazel's question; if there was a coup in Heaven how would we know? Maybe there was a coup, and God was overthrown. Maybe His eternity was tested and He failed.
Or, maybe He was never alive. Maybe just like the Boogeyman and Wolverine, He was just a flash of genius from our imaginative brains. That flash then became light, a flashlight turned on by zealots and tyrants to control an ignorant population, the same way Santa and Boogeyman is used to control the behavior of the unknowing kids. Now the bulb in the flashlight is slowing dying. R.I.P God. Maybe hundreds of years in the future Hollywood will shoot a movie in remembrance of you. Maybe the movie will be called "The Legend of God."
as long as there are phenomena that science can not explain, God will never Die...
"Oh, how fulfilled he would be if he could witness this all too subtle slow death of God at the hands of God's own worshipers"
I am an advocate of ensuring no matter how one discusses issues with 'heretics such as Friedrich or any other atheist, one should never argue with them. The point is, it is pointless.
Albeit, the point I got from this post is that God being dead, referred to the 'customization of His worship amongst His many worshippers'. The truth that was forgotten or perhaps not mentioned is that God does not just worshippers or shall I say it like this... "worshippers of God do not justify God's existence" He is God and that's just the way it is. No wonder, the bible says "those that must worship God must worship Him in spirit in and truth. Our God is one and the way to worship him is not via the various customizations we have around, but in spirit and in truth. How that is, "God knoweth those that are is"
- LDP
This is by far the most interesting post I've read here on this blog, but I don't know... For whatever reason, it just seems too superficial to me; seems more concerned with, or worried about, the witnesses to a phenomenon, as a way to justify it's premise, than the actual phenomenon itself, and that just kind of seems to nullify the whole post for me, unless of course I'm misunderstanding something... or everything.
(did that even make sense...?)
Realist, God could also to live in a world where science explains all phenomenon.
@ As a believer, if you had the chance to speak with that clueless heretic, what would you tell Nietzsche is the basis of your faith?
------- The basis of my understanding* is simple, but complicated to explain... so I'll just say that you, Mr. Nietzsche only did what was correct for a logic-adherent; assuming what was logical. It's just that you forget that we humans are made up of more than just logic, and will likely continue to remain that way.
*the term "faith" establishes certain preconceptions which don't particularly characterize my interpretation, so I choose to use "understanding".
I would just tell him He hasnt met my God yet.
@NenyeN my comment was just meant to show that the major reason we humans believe in God is because we dont have anything else that answers our various questions. Believing there is a higher being that is responsible for everything alleviates this problem.
@ Realist
----- Oh, okay.
@Nenye @LDP
My bad. I really did think the implicit premise that God doesn't exist was obvious. The entire meme of his death/survival refers only to the belief in God, and to not God himself. Notice the reference to percentages.
I would have to be a religious fellow to think belief=exists. Ironic LDP should point this out.
@Azazel
"I always naively believed that Everyone on earth if shown the 'Truth' would choose it and discard the lie."
Yes oh. Some lies are so well crafted that they are extremely hostile to the truth. Even when there's no doubt.
And there are men out there that exploit this. "Christianity knows that it is of little consequence whether a thing is true or not, so long as it is believed to be true" -Nietzsche
"What functions" That's absolutely right. Some of us are just lucky such that "what functions" for us is a lil less delusion.
Another Victor (Victor Hugo) said something. "All the armies of the world can't stop an idea whose time has come."
Truth will have its day.
@ That's absolutely right. Some of us are just lucky such that "what functions" for us is a lil less delusion
I would rather be mad with truth than sane with lies.
I would rather live a miserable life knowing the truth, than live a happy life living a lie.
@Messiah
Very Interesting. Nice imagery. Deus the all powerful master of TIME and space would have a tombstone that reads like (Before Time - circa 98AD.) LOL
The coup idea is certifiably maga. Hunting God. what a rush.
@Realist
"as long as there are phenomena that science can not explain, God will never Die..."
Not necessarily. I think that's an oversimplification. The belief-in-God equation has many components[many psychological]. Mysteries are but one variable. I am sure if you play with all the variables you can imagine scenarios where; despite humanity attaining perfect knowledge God survives, and on the flip side, we could have a couple of unexplained phenomena yet God dies.
@Nenye
Humans are indeed just logic. Zillions upon Zillions of physical processes interacting in an unintelligibly complex, but deterministic way. Your consciousness, as comlicated as it may seem, can be reduced to oodles of atoms acting logically. Emotions, Understanding and all.
Those thoughts/experiences/feelings/'understandings', which you admittedly have no label for, tell you nothing about God, but rather tell you about yourself. Your biological self.
@Fabulola
He has met the Christian God oh. Probably in more detail and ways than you have.
@Azazel
Chief. Your conviction stems from a thorough understanding/appreciation for the value of truth. Most have never had these thoughts and often place well being, by default, far above truth.
And like Jack Nicholson said in "A few Good Men" and I'm paraphrasing here. "Some can't handle the truth"
What would I tell Nietzsche was the basis of my faith? Testimony. One surely cannot argue with another's personal experience and how they choose to interprete it.
@ C u o
@ What would I tell Nietzsche was the basis of my faith? Testimony. One surely cannot argue with another's personal experience and how they choose to interprete it.
Why can't one argue with testimony?
U presuppose that the testimony is accurate and true.
Do urself a favor and read this earlier blogpost bud.
http://eche-crates.blogspot.com/2010/01/blogsville-peeps-please-come-hither.html
@ My bad. I really did think the implicit premise that God doesn't exist was obvious.
----- This is my point exactly. Your aim is (or at least, seems) directly at the phenomenon, but your entire write up is founded on the witnesses as a way to justify the above premise. Am I understanding correctly?
@Humans are indeed just logic. Zillions upon Zillions of physical processes interacting in an unintelligibly complex, but deterministic way. Your consciousness, as comlicated as it may seem, can be reduced to oodles of atoms acting logically. Emotions, Understanding and all.
----- That isn't what I was referring to. Instead, I was referring to the fact that we are not strict logic-adherents. I guess I should have taken better care in writing that portion.
@Nenye
Nope. You understand wrongly. Nietzsche's "God is dead" is only a metaphor. It refers to waning belief in God, exclusively.
Well, not entirely. You see, atheists believe God does not exist. That God is nothing more than an idea and therefore, in a sense, equate global disbelief in God to his death. That makes it a little more than just a metaphor.
LIKE THE METAPHOR, THIS POST IS ENTIRELY ABOUT BELIEF IN GOD. Tackling the issue of God existing/not is a completely different animal. It would mean deconstructing the proof of his existence. There isn't any.
@Logic adherents issue. Point taken. But I'll add that we are all creatures of logic to varying degrees. Some more so than others, but certainly no one is entirely Logic-phobic i.e, no one bathes in a fire.
I'll contend that, no matter how little one's 'faith' in logic is, and despite a disproportionate faith in many things opposed to logic, at some arbitrary point in the future, it just might be impossible to resist submission to scientific truth as it subdues everything else(alleged spiritual experiences, fear, grief, hunger for love, purpose of life, emotions, etc.) Everything that contributes to a belief in god would be subdued. It will happen sooner for some, later for some others, but delayed only to the extent they are not logic adherents. But only delayed, not stopped.
"worshippers of God do not justify God's existence" He is God and that's just the way it is. No wonder, the bible says "those that must worship God must worship Him in spirit in and truth. Our God is one and the way to worship him is not via the various customizations we have around, but in spirit and in truth. How that is, "God knoweth those that are is"
LDP, thanks!
@ "They may call themselves Christians/Muslims or Mormons, but within each group every individual worships a different customized version of God. This is very easy to verify, challenge any critical part of their books and the fevered editing takes off in every direction."
Your point being what? That all human beings believing in God MUST have the same ideas about God otherwise their belief in God is dying? I'm confused. I believe Nietzsche whom you love so much also proposed "persepectivism". Nobody's opinion is objective so why shouldn't people have differing opinions about God?
@"It is just possible that he is edited into oblivion, bit by bit, one fantastic tale after another."
I'm going to have to disagree. Nobody is editing God into "oblivion". They are editing the bible into their "present". The fact is, despite what Christians believe, the bible is old. Not all of its truths will hold for every person as time goes by. The bible is not God. It was not written by God, and finding holes in the bible is not a sign of "disbelief". It is a sign of a functioning brain.
"Patricide of a divine variety."
This isn't going to happen. There will be no patricide. More like a mutation. We are not moving towards a "death" of God. I believe its going to be more of a "peaceful co-existence" between God and whatever else there is.
@ "As a believer, if you had the chance to speak with that clueless heretic, what would you tell Nietzsche is the basis of your faith?"
The basis of my faith is the belief that no one idea has all the answers and everybody has to figure out their own way.
@ EDJ
@ Not all of its truths will hold for every person as time goes by. The bible is not God. It was not written by God, and finding holes in the bible is not a sign of "disbelief". It is a sign of a functioning brain
For u to go on and then say that the bible is not God and was not written by God as a basis to make ur point is purely ridiculous. If u say that God is all knowing surely he would know that down the years, people would have to discover these things for themselves?? So because the bible was not written by God but by man, it's 'truthiness' is suspect??
Please correct me if am wrong hun, but if something is True shouldn't the passage of time serve to reinforce it's Truth Value instead of diminish it??? If what was supposedly 'True' a thousand years ago is now considered a lie a thousand years later, it was obviously never TRUE to begin with.
Am still WOWING @ this statement
The bible is not God. It was not written by God, and finding holes in the bible is not a sign of "disbelief". It is a sign of a functioning brain.
So the bible is not God yet it is cast about as the WORD OF GOD...
And then u go ahead to then say that seeing as it was not written by God that some of the 'truths' inside of it might be suspect. Seriously??
And am guessing it's left up to a 'functioning brain' like urs to cherry pick and decide which 'Truths' apply to u and which don't..
Smh
Okay, Enoch, so I misunderstood. Thank you for clarifying. Now your post makes a bit more sense to me.
@Azazel.
@"If u say that God is all knowing surely he would know that down the years, people would have to discover these things for themselves?? So because the bible was not written by God but by man, it's 'truthiness' is suspect??".
The bible is not 100% infallible because it was written by man and man is not 100% infallible.
"Please correct me if am wrong hun, but if something is True shouldn't the passage of time serve to reinforce it's Truth Value instead of diminish it??? If what was supposedly 'True' a thousand years ago is now considered a lie a thousand years later, it was obviously never TRUE to begin with."
I agree. What is the problem? "Truth" changes.
@ "So the bible is not God yet it is cast about as the WORD OF GOD..."
Men wrote the bible, men decided what books would be in what bible version. Men. The parts of the bible that are literal word for word speeches from God (apparently) are very clear and not confusing. E.g. The 10 commandments. If God, the same God who knows all, sees all, plans all, etc had written the bible do you really think it would be as contradictory as it is? I am saying that the bible cannot be taken literally in all cases. I guess that means parts of its "truthiness" are suspect but only because man wrote it. Not because there is something wrong with God.
@"And am guessing it's left up to a 'functioning brain' like urs to cherry pick and decide which 'Truths' apply to u and which don't..."
OR I could let the pope/pastor/priest/parent/blogger/whatever decide which parts are truth and which parts apply to me and then blindly follow that branch of Christianity. It is an individual decision. Like my decision to remain Catholic and your decision to become a deist. Everybody has different reactions to the same stimuli.
@Enoch, yup your right, it was a gross oversimplification. I forgot something I often do, disregard the facts so that i can feel good. Why believe we come from Apes when we could believe we were "fearfully and wonderfully" mkade
@ PS: Please. This is about "belief in God" dying. It is not about God dying. It's a metaphor. That's how the phrase "God is dead" was originally used, and that's what this post is about. I didn't think I needed to spell it out, but judging from the number of comments I've received pointing out that "logical flaw," I should have included this PS from the start.
------ Just so you know, many people (or at least, I would think that many) are unfamiliar with Nietzsche and that metaphor. So, you really ought not be surprised at the responses that you get, especially considering the reputation of this blog.
@ I am however, amused to see that religious folks make the "belief is not equal to existence" connection easily.
------ Why does it amuse you?
Hm, first for the post. God is not going nowhere. Nietzche, in his flight of fantasy imagined that science is enough to kill God. Unfortunately, nothing can kill God. Not his person, not even his idea. So long as humans exist, the thought of God will always be in the heart of the human race. If u wanna bet on it, be my guest.
The customizations u think are sounding the death knell of God are nothing new. They have been here since the beginning of recorded history. In all that time, God dint die. Nietzche witnessed the different costumizations of God, maybe to a lesser degree than us, but God has always been interpreted differently by different people. What nietzche foresaw was death, and no matter how much u rationalise it, he lied. God is very much alive.and not dying anytime soon. So if i was u, i wouldnt hold my breath.
Azazel, u always go on about truth, what exactly is the truth you want to show that u want people to go for? no one can see things like u, no matter how much u try. ur only one man, everything is not an exercise in deduction, so no matter how much you think u have seen the truth, u should first realise that you as a person can NEVER be objective, so ur truth is already tainted. then when others see it, they do so with their own indivudual lenses: some will agree, some wont. thats the way it is, and thats how its always been. humans wont change for u, man, you aint God.
one thing about truth is that it is convincing, of itself. tell us what uve seen, and then allow us to see it for ourselves. if it is true, we will be convinced. too much words, too much arguments, screams of logic, reason, rational, bla bla, only makes me wonder who u r trying to convince, us, or urself. im not sure u even know what it is you see...if u are rock sure of it, please, write a post and tell us what is real and what is not. if it is true, i will beleive becos make no mistake, ur dealing with a very rational person, and as someone pointed out, most humans are rational, some more than others. we all have brains, we all recognise evidence. till then, pls, leave ur thoughts on the level of opinion. dont universalise them.
I kno the life ive lived, and ive been through all cycles of unbelief and doubt. ive rationalised, found holes in the bible, and when i say it, i mean it. Real holes where things dont add up. yea, ive been there, done that. considered atheism, actually announced to my parents i dont want anything to do with church and lived a godless life for a while. so when i open my mouth today to say i beleive there is god, i dont say it to convince anyone, neither do i say it because im trying to argue theology. When i say so, Im declaring the reality of MY life, and the things ive seen around me and within me. Till you see it and understand it, you have no clue.
what i will tell nietzche about my belief in God?? read this all over again.
@ EDJ
@ The bible is not 100% infallible because it was written by man and man is not 100% infallible.
But u believe that God is infallible right?
And if u believe that God inspired Holy men to write the bible, surely God's 'inspiration' is surely infallible right??
@ Men wrote the bible, men decided what books would be in what bible version. Men. The parts of the bible that are literal word for word speeches from God (apparently) are very clear and not confusing. E.g. The 10 commandments. If God, the same God who knows all, sees all, plans all, etc had written the bible do you really think it would be as contradictory as it is? I am saying that the bible cannot be taken literally in all cases. I guess that means parts of its "truthiness" are suspect but only because man wrote it. Not because there is something wrong with God.
So u only take as Truth the parts creditted to God? Even tho those words were written by men who said that they came from God?
Lmao u are to funny
@ El Divine
I think u went on a rant without stating what u were referring to..
@ Azazel, u always go on about truth, what exactly is the truth you want to show that u want people to go for?
What exactly are u referring to bro?
@EDJ
"Your point being what? That all human beings believing in God MUST have the same ideas about God otherwise their belief in God is dying? I'm confused"
Don't be Confused. How do you think unbelievers emerge? By a sudden and total collapse of their beliefs? Nah. It's often a gradual process. Don't complicate a simple thing. For each subtle and necessary change you make in your faith, there's a Miss Felicity somewhere that considers that change a deal breaker.
And please go and read perspectivism aome more. It is not as simple an idea as you suggest it is. It is a common error to think it suggests there are no objective truths.
'I'm going to have to disagree. Nobody is editing God into "oblivion". They are editing the bible into their "present". The fact is, despite what Christians believe, the bible is old. Not all of its truths will hold for every person as time goes by. The bible is not God. It was not written by God, and finding holes in the bible is not a sign of "disbelief". It is a sign of a functioning brain."
Again, you make my point.
By functioning brain, I assume you mean reason and logic? Not magic spiritual receptors. Where do you suppose that would lead you ultimately? Closer to Chukwu? *giggle*
"This isn't going to happen. There will be no patricide. More like a mutation. We are not moving towards a "death" of God. I believe its going to be more of a "peaceful co-existence" between God and whatever else there is. "
Worshiping a mutant? woot! woot! Lets see how long these mutant gods can escape natural selection. It's survival of the fittest. Science is fitter.
Religious folks are 'mutating' Yaweh to Spinoza's god.
"The basis of my faith is the belief that no one idea has all the answers and everybody has to figure out their own way."
Looking for answers to your questions? Shouldn't you be seeking the right questions for THE answer?
@El-divine.
The spacebar is your friend.
I like that you speak in absolutes. I also admire your untestable convictions.
@Nenye
"God is dead" has to rank top 20 in most popular quotes.
Whats the reputation of the blog? I'm totally clueless about that.
belief=existence. Dunno about you, but I have met a lot of religious folks that assume god exists solely because they believe.
@El-divine
OOps. meant to say the enter key/ return key /paragraph making key is your friend.
@ "belief=existence. Dunno about you, but I have met a lot of religious folks that assume god exists solely because they believe"
------- So that's why you're amused? Maybe it's just me, but it the statement above, as well as you stating that you were amused, seems as if you're expecting believers to be stupid. Not saying that you are though... I'm just saying.
As for statement on the quote. Ok.
As for your question on this blog's reputation, are you serious?
Lol @ shouldn't u be seeking the right question for the answers
@Nenye
My bros is the smartest guy I know and he is a believer. I don't think they're stupid. I have, however, realized that a lot of the faithful need to be jolted to seriously consider their beliefs. Some coast through life without ever, not even once, harboring the thought "is there a god?" Being very blunt is a helpful jolt.
On the other hand, I consider myself a very stupid fellow. It is important that I say that as often as possible because, some read my comments/posts and conclude I am a narcissistic megalomaniac. Nope. I'm just a carefree blunt dolt.
And yes, I am indeed serious. Whats the reputation of the blog? I seriously want to know.
Enoch, Oh okay. Alright then, well, let me see how I can sum up the reputation of this blog... well, it is known for its directness, lack of consideration and its tendency to illicit deep sentimental responses. The blog itself is rather aggressive.
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